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PO Scandal
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- Lemon Slice
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Re: PO Scandal
Having listened to the program it really does not seem to be getting through to lawyers that computer evidence alone cannot be relied on, and that there is no easy fix for that problem. Sometimes the court case may occur simply because the computer was wrong or misleading.
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- Lemon Slice
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Re: PO Scandal
There was a moment of supreme irony at the inquiry last Friday. Rod Ismay, trying to explain why he didn’t report his knowledge of remote access of Horizon to senior members of the Post Office, complained that he had been provided with too many documents. Counsel Jason Beer replied:
“Yes, apologies for the number of documents. In the Inquiry, we like to give people full disclosure.”
Cinelli
“Yes, apologies for the number of documents. In the Inquiry, we like to give people full disclosure.”
Cinelli
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- Lemon Half
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Re: PO Scandal
stockton wrote:Having listened to the program it really does not seem to be getting through to lawyers that computer evidence alone cannot be relied on, and that there is no easy fix for that problem. Sometimes the court case may occur simply because the computer was wrong or misleading.
It needs to get through to MPs as well as the law was changed in around 1999 to presume that the computer software was always working correctly. Before that, a defence could claim that the software or hardware were faulty and the prosecution had to denonstrate reliability. Admittedly this change shortened speed camera and drink driving trials.
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- Lemon Quarter
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Re: PO Scandal
Aficionados of these proceedings will remember that Horizon's 'bugs, errors and defects' were renamed 'anomalies' after Ms Vennells asked her husband for wording less emotive.
Leading Counsel Jason Beer KC drove home the inanity of this when the Inquiry's document display system crashed temporarily when switching from one type of document to another. He suggested a 5-minute break saying that 'we seem to have a bug in the system, or perhaps an anomaly'.
Leading Counsel Jason Beer KC drove home the inanity of this when the Inquiry's document display system crashed temporarily when switching from one type of document to another. He suggested a 5-minute break saying that 'we seem to have a bug in the system, or perhaps an anomaly'.
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- Lemon Quarter
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Wednesday 22nd (a red-letter day) …
This three-day feast will celebrate the martyrdom of Saint Paula of Po
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- Lemon Quarter
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Re: PO Scandal
The best bit today was not Vennells' histrionics, but at the very end (2:07:06 onwards) the last question by Chairman Wyn William: "Why" - that totally floored her.
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- Lemon Quarter
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Re: PO Scandal
stewamax wrote:The best bit today was not Vennells' histrionics, but at the very end (2:07:06 onwards) the last question by Chairman Wyn William: "Why" - that totally floored her.
Please link to the content you are referring to.
Thanks
GS
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- Lemon Half
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Re: PO Scandal
stewamax wrote:The best bit today was not Vennells' histrionics, but at the very end (2:07:06 onwards) the last question by Chairman Wyn William: "Why" - that totally floored her.
Not having heard the programme, could you perhaps expand on why the question "Why?" "totally floored her" please?
Thanks!
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- Lemon Quarter
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Re: PO Scandal
I can't help thinking the Lord must be looking down favourably on Paula Vennels.
I can't help thinking that the news reports covering her appearance today will no longer be as prominent or as in depth as most people thought it would be...
I can't help thinking that the news reports covering her appearance today will no longer be as prominent or as in depth as most people thought it would be...
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- Lemon Half
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Re: PO Scandal
staffordian wrote:I can't help thinking the Lord must be looking down favourably on Paula Vennels.
I can't help thinking that the news reports covering her appearance today will no longer be as prominent or as in depth as most people thought it would be...
It was her breaking into tears and needing a break to "compose herself" before continuing wot dunnit.
Made her come across as almost human, I thought. Mebbe our Dear Lord was taken in by it too.
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- Lemon Quarter
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Re: PO Scandal
Sorry for not providing a link - I have tended to assume that Inquiry 'regulars' know where to look.
Today's episode is at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGAi6lqaORE
To summarise my point: immediately before Ms Vennells appeared before the Parliamentary Select Committee, she had been given a brief of how to respond to questions about the PO or Fujitsu having remote and undetectable access to a sub-postmaster's account. The brief was in three parts - roughly:
- a straightforward answer "remote changing or deleting transactions was impossible"
- if pushed, then some more only slightly embarassing explanation
- if still pushed, then a guarded admission that Fujitsu could ADD a transaction to balance the books (if a Horizon error had screwed them up)
Vennells had at various times denied that there was any attempt at a cover-up.
So Chairman Wyn Williams, who was clearly interested in why there was a need for a brief structured with such temporising and prevarication simply asked - given that there was no attempt at cover-up - Why?
Vennells just stopped dead with her mouth half open and with no response whatever.
Urbane and extremely well-prepared Leading Counsel Jason Beer KC never raised his voice but led her gently into lethal minefields of questions for which she had no cogent answer.
Today's episode is at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGAi6lqaORE
To summarise my point: immediately before Ms Vennells appeared before the Parliamentary Select Committee, she had been given a brief of how to respond to questions about the PO or Fujitsu having remote and undetectable access to a sub-postmaster's account. The brief was in three parts - roughly:
- a straightforward answer "remote changing or deleting transactions was impossible"
- if pushed, then some more only slightly embarassing explanation
- if still pushed, then a guarded admission that Fujitsu could ADD a transaction to balance the books (if a Horizon error had screwed them up)
Vennells had at various times denied that there was any attempt at a cover-up.
So Chairman Wyn Williams, who was clearly interested in why there was a need for a brief structured with such temporising and prevarication simply asked - given that there was no attempt at cover-up - Why?
Vennells just stopped dead with her mouth half open and with no response whatever.
Urbane and extremely well-prepared Leading Counsel Jason Beer KC never raised his voice but led her gently into lethal minefields of questions for which she had no cogent answer.
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- Lemon Quarter
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Re: PO Scandal
Sam Stein KC did quite a hatchet job on her this morning, it was car crash stuff. Unimpressed by the "I cannot remember" line of response all week, I wonder if that was more to do with deflecting any civil or criminal claims in future. Anyway, her reputation has been binned, I doubt we'll see or hear from her in public again.
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- Lemon Quarter
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Re: PO Scandal
KCs Sam Stein and Edward Henry both came out with guns blazing. But their lines of questioning were mostly obvious, and Ms Vennells was generally prepared for them.
But the silks that have done the real reputational damage were - inevitably - the quietly lethal Jason Beer (who was not 'on' today* as it was a core-participants day) and the subtle Dr Tim Moloney who using just three emails and comparing their times managed to shred Ms Vennells soi-disant reputation as a caring boss.
* apart from when he needed to remind the gallery (audience) to keep quiet or be ejected
But the silks that have done the real reputational damage were - inevitably - the quietly lethal Jason Beer (who was not 'on' today* as it was a core-participants day) and the subtle Dr Tim Moloney who using just three emails and comparing their times managed to shred Ms Vennells soi-disant reputation as a caring boss.
* apart from when he needed to remind the gallery (audience) to keep quiet or be ejected
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- Lemon Half
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Re: PO Scandal
moorfield wrote:Sam Stein KC did quite a hatchet job on her this morning, it was car crash stuff. Unimpressed by the "I cannot remember" line of response all week, I wonder if that was more to do with deflecting any civil or criminal claims in future. Anyway, her reputation has been binned, I doubt we'll see or hear from her in public again.
from her perspective "so what" - she keeps all the dosh, all the bonuses. All she has lost is a bauble.
caveat: https://news.sky.com/story/post-office- ... g-13144248
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- Lemon Quarter
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Re: PO Scandal
didds wrote:From her [Ms Vennels'] perspective "so what" - she keeps all the dosh, all the bonuses. All she has lost is a bauble.
But we have the well-deserved announcement today that 'scourge of the PO' Alan Bates, who turned down an OBE last year because Paula Vennells still had her CBE at that point - has been knighted in the King's Birthday Honours.
Excellent.
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