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Not even a mention here.

How to buy, profit and invest in crypto currencies or NFTs
GoSeigen
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Not even a mention here.

#629180

Postby GoSeigen » November 22nd, 2023, 3:48 pm

Seems everyone has just accepted that crypto was corrupt and a scam from top to bottom, nothing is news any more. Isn't it time to get rid of this ridiculous forum?


GS

Itsallaguess
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Re: Not even a mention here.

#629185

Postby Itsallaguess » November 22nd, 2023, 4:17 pm

GoSeigen wrote:
Seems everyone has just accepted that crypto was corrupt and a scam from top to bottom, nothing is news any more.

Isn't it time to get rid of this ridiculous forum?


Shouldn't the Crypto and NFT board stay so that we can continue to record and discuss such interesting developments though?

I think it's a great resource for anyone with a sceptical eye on the whole area, and you being able to point out this latest scandal here is surely testament to that...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

Urbandreamer
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Re: Not even a mention here.

#629188

Postby Urbandreamer » November 22nd, 2023, 4:32 pm

GoSeigen wrote:Seems everyone has just accepted that crypto was corrupt and a scam from top to bottom, nothing is news any more. Isn't it time to get rid of this ridiculous forum?


GS


Possibly we should just accept that the US $ is a Ponzi scheme?
You know how these philanthropists are.

Most of us seem to be aware that there are people out there who have faults. Just possibly we shouldn't blame the currency for their faults.

BTW, don't you know that you are on the wrong board? If your post is meant to be more than just trolling then you really should be posting it here.

Of course it could be against the guidelines for that board.
Something to do with this rider.
"Constructive suggestions only please."

Oh and by the way, I think that your suggestion that "everyone has just accepted", may be a bit far off the mark. Isn't Blackrock getting involved?

Midsmartin
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Re: Not even a mention here.

#629192

Postby Midsmartin » November 22nd, 2023, 4:48 pm

If it is all a scam, it's probably worth having the forum for people to learn that.

I am not convinced it's all a scam. Some of it is. Maybe much of it is. Some of the trading exchanges may be.

As this mainly an investment forum, consider the cryptocoin called numerai. https://numer.ai/

The company uses artificial intelligence to make predictions used to run a hedge fund. People in essence pay using Numeraire cryptocurrency to enter stock market prediction contests. The better the predictions you make for their network, the more you are paid back, in their cryptocurrency. Thus the cryptocurrency has a real, though niche, function.

It's a real hedge fund. If you have $5m you can invest. They've paid out $30m in their cryptocurrency, according to their website, which presumably is then sold for dollars. The cryptocoins trade at about £13 today. Is this good value? I've no idea. Is it a scam? I don't *think* so. Have I bought any? No . Couldn't they just have used a real currency instead? Maybe, but so what?

There are several other examples of cryptocurrencies that have an actual purpose. Whether this means it's sensible to go and buy them at today's prices is a different question.

I don't see that a cryptocoin is by necessity much more of a scam than a gold bar. Gold has uses in jewelry and industry, but its main value lies solely in the hope that the next investor will pay you more than you paid. Much like good old bitcoin. Though a gold bar will remain in existence for longer.

It's true that it's hazardous. It's also true that plenty of people think bitcoin will be over a million dollars by 2030.
I have no idea if they are right, but it's not necessarily crazy to have say 1% of your assets spread over a few different cryptocurrencies.
I hate the energy requirements of bitcoin. Other cryptocurrencies have been created without this energy overhead, but they have not taken over in popularity.

Urbandreamer
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Re: Not even a mention here.

#629199

Postby Urbandreamer » November 22nd, 2023, 5:03 pm

Midsmartin wrote:I hate the energy requirements of bitcoin. Other cryptocurrencies have been created without this energy overhead, but they have not taken over in popularity.


That really is a subject for a different thread. I don't mean that it's not worthy of discussion, rather that said discussion could be huge and wide ranging.

I happen to believe that the energy requirement of bitcoin is an important part of it's security.
That doesn't mean that I discount environmental concerns. However as I recently pointed out on the Green Investing board in response to a criticism of wind farms being paid not to produce: in Texas that production would be sold to bitcoin miners with them turning off when consumer demand for energy is high.

GoSeigen
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Re: Not even a mention here.

#629208

Postby GoSeigen » November 22nd, 2023, 5:27 pm

Itsallaguess wrote:
GoSeigen wrote:
Seems everyone has just accepted that crypto was corrupt and a scam from top to bottom, nothing is news any more.

Isn't it time to get rid of this ridiculous forum?


Shouldn't the Crypto and NFT board stay so that we can continue to record and discuss such interesting developments though?

I think it's a great resource for anyone with a sceptical eye on the whole area, and you being able to point out this latest scandal here is surely testament to that...


Deftly handled IAAG :D :D

GS

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Re: Not even a mention here.

#629238

Postby Bubblesofearth » November 22nd, 2023, 6:44 pm

I'm actually surprised there's not more discussion of cryptocurrencies on here. I guess it maybe points to the boards demographic? My personal view remains the same, that I don't understand the value argument and wouldn't touch them with the proverbial boat propelling instrument. But it's hard to ignore the fact that Bitcoin, for example, has not collapsed (yet) and that there continues to be a lot of interest and investment in crypto. When this happens I have to ask myself if there's something I don't know or get.

Not for me but worthy of discussion nonetheless IMO.

BoE

GrahamPlatt
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Re: Not even a mention here.

#629247

Postby GrahamPlatt » November 22nd, 2023, 7:09 pm

GoSeigen wrote:Seems everyone has just accepted that crypto was corrupt and a scam from top to bottom, nothing is news any more. Isn't it time to get rid of this ridiculous forum?


GS


Is this a call for “deplatforming”?

Urbandreamer
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Re: Not even a mention here.

#629251

Postby Urbandreamer » November 22nd, 2023, 7:14 pm

Bubblesofearth wrote:I'm actually surprised there's not more discussion of cryptocurrencies on here. I guess it maybe points to the boards demographic? My personal view remains the same, that I don't understand the value argument and wouldn't touch them with the proverbial boat propelling instrument. But it's hard to ignore the fact that Bitcoin, for example, has not collapsed (yet) and that there continues to be a lot of interest and investment in crypto. When this happens I have to ask myself if there's something I don't know or get.

Not for me but worthy of discussion nonetheless IMO.

BoE


I think that you are right with your views on demographics, but would also suspect that it's in part due to the origin of TLF. TMF came to the UK in the 90's and many who frequented the boards there moved here when former members of TMF set it up on the closure of TMF's boards.

As such I think that there is a strong history of cash based personal finance mixed with investment in shares. Indeed I'm often surprised by how popular both the passive investing board and the frequency of mentions of unit trusts rather than investment trusts on the board covering both. TMF had little time for the WISE, who pushed unit trusts in the 90's and strong opinions upon personal responsibility.

That coupled with the vitriol any positive remark on cryto engenders and is it any surprise that few chose to start threads here. Except possibly to highlight when it is ether used as a scam or apparently by criminals.

As for what you don't know or get about the subject, it's a rabbet hole!
The more that you learn, the more that you find that there is to learn.

Much of which relates to stuff that predates crypto currencies.
I.E this 1972 work by a well known economist of the day.
https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/2833576

CliffEdge
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Re: Not even a mention here.

#629260

Postby CliffEdge » November 22nd, 2023, 7:32 pm

I would buy a bitcoin if Hargreaves Lansdown sold them.

Lootman
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Re: Not even a mention here.

#629262

Postby Lootman » November 22nd, 2023, 7:36 pm

CliffEdge wrote:I would buy a bitcoin if Hargreaves Lansdown sold them.

There will soon be an ETF for bitcoin. And you can already buy a closed-end fund that invests in it: Grayscale Bitcoin Trust, ticker GBTC.

88V8
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Re: Not even a mention here.

#629275

Postby 88V8 » November 22nd, 2023, 8:02 pm

Lootman wrote:
CliffEdge wrote:I would buy a bitcoin if Hargreaves Lansdown sold them.

There will soon be an ETF for bitcoin. And you can already buy a closed-end fund that invests in it: Grayscale Bitcoin Trust, ticker GBTC.

I just question the use of the word 'invest'.

V8

Bubblesofearth
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Re: Not even a mention here.

#629340

Postby Bubblesofearth » November 23rd, 2023, 7:57 am

Urbandreamer wrote:

As such I think that there is a strong history of cash based personal finance mixed with investment in shares.


I think this is where you sometimes create a straw man. Very few people on here invest a significant portion of their wealth in cash or cash like vehicles. We are all too aware of the damage inflation does to such holdings. Yes there are a few vocal advocates of gilts/bonds but not many. So you are really talking about that small fraction of wealth that is for short-term expenditure or rainy day money. As such it needs to avoid the volatility inherent in other investment vehicles, including crypto.

So when you compare the performance of crypto with, for example, the $ or £ your arguments may well be correct but they are largely irrelevant for serious investors. I would reckon most of the people on here have the bulk of their wealth in a mix of equities and property.

I feel a poll coming on....

BoE

Urbandreamer
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Re: Not even a mention here.

#629349

Postby Urbandreamer » November 23rd, 2023, 8:32 am

Bubblesofearth wrote:
Urbandreamer wrote:

As such I think that there is a strong history of cash based personal finance mixed with investment in shares.


I think this is where you sometimes create a straw man. Very few people on here invest a significant portion of their wealth in cash or cash like vehicles.
BoE


I think that you are unaware of the posts and usernames of those who set up this site!

Stooz I believe is both a founder and, when not a username Stooze refers to actions upon cash accounts.
Clariman while private, has posted that he values cash as a significant holding.

However I too would welcome a poll, so here it is.
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=41439

murraypaul
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Re: Not even a mention here.

#629356

Postby murraypaul » November 23rd, 2023, 8:49 am

Midsmartin wrote:Couldn't they just have used a real currency instead? Maybe, but so what?


So the crypto has no actual purpose, and has just been inserted to make them money.

Itsallaguess
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Re: Not even a mention here.

#629370

Postby Itsallaguess » November 23rd, 2023, 9:43 am

Urbandreamer wrote:
Possibly we should just accept that the US $ is a Ponzi scheme?


When people raise their concerns with Crypto on these boards, you often look to shine a light on some of the inadequacies of our long-established global financial order.

The big difference with Crypto though, is that it's being very heavily promoted across almost all of the modern social-media channels, which presents, for me at least, a stand-out audience-based risk that is simply not seen in any of the more established financial systems at anywhere near the same levels of promotion.

If a Crypto system needs persistent global over-promotion to the gullible in order to maintain it's worth, then surely it's entirely sensible to question that underlying worth on a regular basis too...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

Urbandreamer
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Re: Not even a mention here.

#629405

Postby Urbandreamer » November 23rd, 2023, 11:35 am

Itsallaguess wrote:
Urbandreamer wrote:
Possibly we should just accept that the US $ is a Ponzi scheme?


When people raise their concerns with Crypto on these boards, you often look to shine a light on some of the inadequacies of our long-established global financial order.

The big difference with Crypto though, is that it's being very heavily promoted across almost all of the modern social-media channels, which presents, for me at least, a stand-out audience-based risk that is simply not seen in any of the more established financial systems at anywhere near the same levels of promotion.

If a Crypto system needs persistent global over-promotion to the gullible in order to maintain it's worth, then surely it's entirely sensible to question that underlying worth on a regular basis too...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess


You may claim that crypto suffers from over promotion, but your basis can't be this board. Many/most posts shine warnings on scams. NOT crypto that doesn't work out, but out and out scams or fraud. Strangely you object to me pointing out that such seems to exist with normal currency.

GS called for the closure of this board, because "everyone has just accepted that crypto was corrupt and a scam from top to bottom".
Possibly a valid opinion of those who start posts on this board! Though not I would argue a valid opinion of either the general public or those who frequent this board.

Thanks for making me think about this. I shall endeavor to hunt out positive bitcoin news to draw the attention of this board to.

CliffEdge
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Re: Not even a mention here.

#629406

Postby CliffEdge » November 23rd, 2023, 11:41 am

It doesn't seem to be possible to buy a bitcoin from any reputable seller.

Urbandreamer
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Re: Not even a mention here.

#629458

Postby Urbandreamer » November 23rd, 2023, 3:28 pm

CliffEdge wrote:It doesn't seem to be possible to buy a bitcoin from any reputable seller.


PayPal allowed you to buy bitcoin up until October and expect to allow it again in 2024. They have had to suspend their operation until they can comply with new UK regulations. I'm sure that you were unaware that they sold bitcoin and did not actually mean to impugn their reputation.

I thought that this link might also be of interest.
https://www.swanbitcoin.com/bitcoin-inv ... Corner-U-K

It's a link to a list of reputable exchanges that is hosted by Swan, a US exchange. I.E including competitors.

Apparently CoinCorner in the UK has the following reputation.
"Trustpilot Rating: 4.3 out of 5"

I don't use any of them on that list, but you did imply that you were interested in a list of reputable sellers.

FWIW I use Coinbase, but keep little bitcoin on the exchange. You really should think in terms of buying and selling, rather than using an exchange like a broker account.
You don't "own" the money in your bank or brokers account. The same is true of any crypto exchange or other custodian.
You are a creditor. It just happens that the UK government will refund pound losses from a bank or broker, up to a limit for individuals.

Itsallaguess
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Re: Not even a mention here.

#629509

Postby Itsallaguess » November 23rd, 2023, 5:57 pm

Urbandreamer wrote:
You may claim that crypto suffers from over promotion, but your basis can't be this board.

Many/most posts shine warnings on scams. NOT crypto that doesn't work out, but out and out scams or fraud.

Strangely you object to me pointing out that such seems to exist with normal currency.


I didn't 'object' to you raising counter-points related to normal currency or established financial controls, and if you think I did then I'd ask you to please quote me where I did so.

What I did do, was to raise the quite valid point that you do repeatedly carry out such comparisons, because I wanted to then point out that I didn't think such comparisons were valid when it came to crypto-related risk, simply because of the huge amount of social-media exposure and over-promotion that crypto gets nowadays, on the vast majority of heavily-viewed social-media channels, and it's that huge disparity of over-promotion that I think carries a lot of the crypto-related risk here, and we simply do not see the same very heavy social-media promotion occurring where it's related to more established finance...

Anyway, I'll let Lloyds Bank explain this large, and unfortunately growing, crypto-related risk that I'm talking about, with some snippets from a recent article of theirs -

Lloyds Bank issues urgent warning over rising threat of crypto scams -

  • Crypto scams have surged by 23% this year as fraudsters target younger investors
  • Victims losing £10,741 on average, more than any other type of scam
  • Two-thirds of investment scams now estimated to start on social media
  • Findings highlight importance of investing through trusted, genuine companies

A growing number of British investors risk being defrauded by a wave of fake adverts posted on social media, according to a new a warning issued by Lloyds Bank.

The number of cryptocurrency investment scams reported by victims so far this year has risen by 23%, compared to the same period in 2022.

The average amount lost by each victim of a crypto investment scam is £10,741 (up from £7,010 last year). This is more than any other type of consumer fraud (such as romance scams or purchase scams).

Remarkably, the analysis found that 66% of all investment scams start on social media – with Instagram and Facebook the most common sources. This includes a mix of bogus ads, fake celebrity endorsements, and targeting through direct messages.


https://www.lloydsbankinggroup.com/media/press-releases/2023/lloyds-bank-2023/lloyds-bank-issues-warning-over-crypto-scams.html


There's lots more crypto-risk related information on the above damning article, which is dated from just two weeks ago.

My question to you would be to ask where these types of damning articles are that relate to the more established financial controls that you often wish to compare crypto to in terms of comparable-risk?

Cheers,

Itsallaguess


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