Damp, mould and the threat to health

[Mike4]

A coroner has said the death of Awaab Ishak from prolonged exposure to mould in his family’s flat should be a “defining moment” for the UK’s housing sector, according to the Guardian newspaper.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... ys-coroner

More specifically, I understand the intention of the coroner is that her comments should bring about change in the rental sector, and that landlords are to be held responsible for mould in their properties. This is a complete mare's nest as multiple issues are intertwined - damp can be from plumbing leaks, rainwater leaks, damp come up from the ground, from rain penetration through 100 year-old brickwork and can be exacerbated by lack of ventilation and/or heating. All are a matter of degree and all conspire to cause mould, and while some of these can be the landlord's responsibility, others are definitely not.

The worrying thing is that in some cases there is little or nothing the landlord can do about it. I had a modern build flat once which had a mild problem with black mould spots appearing the bedroom wall behind where tenants would put their bed. No cause could be found other than the tenants being reluctant to open the window. I sold the place in the end so now some private owner-occupiers have the problem sadly, but they will be far more likely to "own" the problem and open the window than any of my tenants ever were, who prefered to hold me responsible.

Anyway the point is, I can imagine this leading to even more rental properties disappearing from the market as landlords throw in the towel and sell up instead of attempting to deal with damp problems partly caused by tenants. Maybe this is a Good Thing as it raises the standard of rental property overall. Just thinking aloud really...

[murraypaul]

This is a complete mare's nest as multiple issues are intertwined - damp can be from plumbing leaks, rainwater leaks, damp come up from the ground, from rain penetration through 100 year-old brickwork and can be exacerbated by lack of ventilation and/or heating. All are a matter of degree and all conspire to cause mould, and while some of these can be the landlord's responsibility, others are definitely not.

Everything before 'and can be exacerbated...' would seem to be the landlord's responsibility?

[Dod101]

A coroner has said the death of Awaab Ishak from prolonged exposure to mould in his family’s flat should be a “defining moment” for the UK’s housing sector, according to the Guardian newspaper.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... ys-coroner

More specifically, I understand the intention of the coroner is that her comments should bring about change in the rental sector, and that landlords are to be held responsible for mould in their properties. This is a complete mare's nest as multiple issues are intertwined - damp can be from plumbing leaks, rainwater leaks, damp come up from the ground, from rain penetration through 100 year-old brickwork and can be exacerbated by lack of ventilation and/or heating. All are a matter of degree and all conspire to cause mould, and while some of these can be the landlord's responsibility, others are definitely not.

The worrying thing is that in some cases there is little or nothing the landlord can do about it. I had a modern build flat once which had a mild problem with black mould spots appearing the bedroom wall behind where tenants would put their bed. No cause could be found other than the tenants being reluctant to open the window. I sold the place in the end so now some private owner-occupiers have the problem sadly, but they will be far more likely to "own" the problem and open the window than any of my tenants ever were, who prefered to hold me responsible.

Anyway the point is, I can imagine this leading to even more rental properties disappearing from the market as landlords throw in the towel and sell up instead of attempting to deal with damp problems partly caused by tenants. Maybe this is a Good Thing as it raises the standard of rental property overall. Just thinking aloud really...

This particular case has been widely reported and rightly or wrongly the landlord, a housing association, is being held responsible. Gove is reported as having summonsed the CEO of the housing association to meet him and it would seem likely that he may well be expected to resign. The case in point is complicated as the tenants were relatively recently arrived immigrants and say that their complaints were completely ignored. The mould from what was shown in TV reports was far more than just some mould, it seemed to be everywhere and surely required a proper investigation as to the cause, and probably rehousing of the tenants whilst the investigation was being carried out.

Being a landlord is not for the feint hearted, in fact being an owner occupier is not either but that is another story. I know; I am waiting for a roofer to tell me what is the cause of rotting soffit boards. So far, there does not seem to be any internal water ingress, but water is can be very destructive.

Dod

[Mike4]

This is a complete mare's nest as multiple issues are intertwined - damp can be from plumbing leaks, rainwater leaks, damp come up from the ground, from rain penetration through 100 year-old brickwork and can be exacerbated by lack of ventilation and/or heating. All are a matter of degree and all conspire to cause mould, and while some of these can be the landlord's responsibility, others are definitely not.

Everything before 'and can be exacerbated...' would seem to be the landlord's responsibility?

True, but if it were an owner-occupier they would possibly be a lot more accommodating/pro-active about it. I have some black mouldy spots on the ceiling over the shower in my own bathroom. If I were a tenant I'd be delighted if a law was to be passed to force my LL to come and correct this obvious structural defect!

[88V8]

The worrying thing is that in some cases there is little or nothing the landlord can do about it. I had a modern build flat once which had a mild problem with black mould spots appearing the bedroom wall behind where tenants would put their bed. No cause could be found other than the tenants being reluctant to open the window.

If the Ishak's flat had been empty, would there have been mould? If so, blame the landlord.

But on the whole, mould is caused by the way people use the building.
Drying washing indoors, showering or cooking with the window closed, not opening windows every day.

We have/had mould in one room, the room where I now sit, there is or was some mould arising from cold walls - 400 yo wattle & daub - and impermeable paint, but if the building were empty I do not believe the mould would be there.

Having 'removed' the mould, as far as one can ever remove mould, and removed some of the unsuitable impermeable paint applied by the PO, I have installed forced ventilation on time switches and am opening the window morning and evening. Fingers crossed that will cure the problem.

The mould has been caused by me and OH, it's a mould-friendly environment caused by condensation and exacerbated by the ignorant use of unsuitable modern paint, not some malign capitalist conspiracy.

The sad death of this immigrant child has been seized upon by the media as a chance to bash landlords - bad - social housing - bad - the govt - bad, but more likely was inadvertently caused by the parents themselves.

V8

[XFool]

The sad death of this immigrant child has been seized upon by the media as a chance to bash landlords - bad - social housing - bad - the govt - bad, but more likely was inadvertently caused by the parents themselves.

You know this, how?

[Mike4]

The worrying thing is that in some cases there is little or nothing the landlord can do about it. I had a modern build flat once which had a mild problem with black mould spots appearing the bedroom wall behind where tenants would put their bed. No cause could be found other than the tenants being reluctant to open the window.

If the Ishak's flat had been empty, would there have been mould? If so, blame the landlord.

But on the whole, mould is caused by the way people use the building.
Drying washing indoors, showering or cooking with the window closed, not opening windows every day.

We have/had mould in one room, the room where I now sit, there is or was some mould arising from cold walls - 400 yo wattle & daub - and impermeable paint, but if the building were empty I do not believe the mould would be there.

Having 'removed' the mould, as far as one can ever remove mould, and removed some of the unsuitable impermeable paint applied by the PO, I have installed forced ventilation on time switches and am opening the window morning and evening. Fingers crossed that will cure the problem.

The mould has been caused by me and OH, it's a mould-friendly environment caused by condensation and exacerbated by the ignorant use of unsuitable modern paint, not some malign capitalist conspiracy.

The sad death of this immigrant child has been seized upon by the media as a chance to bash landlords - bad - social housing - bad - the govt - bad, but more likely was inadvertently caused by the parents themselves.

V8

Excellent post, thank you. You have encapsulated all my concerns about this far more articulately than I did.

[Mike4]

The sad death of this immigrant child has been seized upon by the media as a chance to bash landlords - bad - social housing - bad - the govt - bad, but more likely was inadvertently caused by the parents themselves.

You know this, how?

Are there pictures of this flat and the mould?

And pictures of it with mould before they moved in?

[mc2fool]

But on the whole, mould is caused by the way people use the building.
Drying washing indoors, showering or cooking with the window closed, not opening windows every day.

I, like I'm sure millions and millions of other people, do exactly that for several months of the year, and I, like I'm sure millions and millions of other people, don't have a mould problem. Maybe it's more to do with the buildings, rather than how the millions and millions use them....

[XFool]

The sad death of this immigrant child has been seized upon by the media as a chance to bash landlords - bad - social housing - bad - the govt - bad, but more likely was inadvertently caused by the parents themselves.

You know this, how?

Are there pictures of this flat and the mould?

And pictures of it with mould before they moved in?

I believe I have seen a photo of the mould in a BBC News item. I have seen no photo of the flat "before they moved in", obviously!

Look. I am, of course, as aware as anyone else that mould is/can be caused/exacerbated by the living habits of the people occupying a home. (In some ways this is inevitably true - think about it). Do I know the primary causation of the mould in this particular flat? No.

And neither does anyone else here. That is something else I know which, it seems possible to me, not everyone here does...

[AsleepInYorkshire]

A coroner has said the death of Awaab Ishak from prolonged exposure to mould in his family’s flat should be a “defining moment” for the UK’s housing sector, according to the Guardian newspaper.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... ys-coroner

More specifically, I understand the intention of the coroner is that her comments should bring about change in the rental sector, and that landlords are to be held responsible for mould in their properties. This is a complete mare's nest as multiple issues are intertwined - damp can be from plumbing leaks, rainwater leaks, damp come up from the ground, from rain penetration through 100 year-old brickwork and can be exacerbated by lack of ventilation and/or heating. All are a matter of degree and all conspire to cause mould, and while some of these can be the landlord's responsibility, others are definitely not.

The worrying thing is that in some cases there is little or nothing the landlord can do about it. I had a modern build flat once which had a mild problem with black mould spots appearing the bedroom wall behind where tenants would put their bed. No cause could be found other than the tenants being reluctant to open the window. I sold the place in the end so now some private owner-occupiers have the problem sadly, but they will be far more likely to "own" the problem and open the window than any of my tenants ever were, who preferred to hold me responsible.

Anyway the point is, I can imagine this leading to even more rental properties disappearing from the market as landlords throw in the towel and sell up instead of attempting to deal with damp problems partly caused by tenants. Maybe this is a Good Thing as it raises the standard of rental property overall. Just thinking aloud really...

I suspect many new house builders will be looking at PIV as a solution. It can also be fitted in older homes but obviously at a cost.

AiY(D)

[scotview]

But on the whole, mould is caused by the way people use the building.
Drying washing indoors, showering or cooking with the window closed, not opening windows every day.

I, like I'm sure millions and millions of other people,.

Here's a thing, if folkies are not putting on their heating to save a bob or two this winter, they might be storing up a few damp/mould issues. This will probably apply to the poorest in our society.

I would be reluctant to stint on our central heating because one of the upsides is that it keeps our house mould free and the house atmosphere bone dry, particularly the ensuite shower area.

[Mike4]

But on the whole, mould is caused by the way people use the building.
Drying washing indoors, showering or cooking with the window closed, not opening windows every day.

I, like I'm sure millions and millions of other people, do exactly that for several months of the year, and I, like I'm sure millions and millions of other people, don't have a mould problem. Maybe it's more to do with the buildings, rather than how the millions and millions use them....

I'd say as a lifelong builder (and LL of 25 years) it is about half-and-half. Which is why I feel very uneasy about this whole LL vilification thing.

I think there will be LLs up and down the land thinking any damp problems that seem tenant-related are going result in a S21 eviction, should a law be introduced holding LLs responsible for all damp problems whatever the cause. What else can they do? I've seen rented properties occupied by families who cook constantly and never open the windows, for example. What IS a LL to do in such a situation?

[monabri]

We have an issue with a tenant. He reported white mould on the wall in the lounge ( it came off with few minutes of elbow grease and a bleach based cleaner). We suspected he is not heating the flat. Over the 6 months he has been in residence his average daily gas usage has be around 20 to 23p per day. In the last 7 days he has used an avg of just under 20 pence per day of gas. Since the shower is powered by the gas boiler we think he is showering at work or the gym. Either way, it is clear he is not heating the flat in breech of the tenancy agreement. He is in a professional career ( teacher) and is on at least 60x multiple of the monthly rent ( ie the1 bed flat should be affordable for him).

[XFool]

But on the whole, mould is caused by the way people use the building.
Drying washing indoors, showering or cooking with the window closed, not opening windows every day.

I, like I'm sure millions and millions of other people, do exactly that for several months of the year

Yes. It's called living. (Actually, I generally do have a window open somewhere)

and I, like I'm sure millions and millions of other people, don't have a mould problem. Maybe it's more to do with the buildings, rather than how the millions and millions use them....

You mean some buildings may not be fit to live in?

Once again, in this particular case, we do not know enough facts, we only really know what has been reported in the news.

[Mike4]

You mean some buildings may not be fit to live in?

Undoubtedly some are not.

In starting this thread I was hoping to debate the issues of damp and mould in rentals rather than poor Awaab Ishak specifically.

So would we as a society prefer to remove from the rental market all properties that suffer from damp? Whatever the reason for the damp?

What effect will that have on rents...?

How dangerous is dampness anyway? It seems to have killed a child but this also seems vanishingly rare.

I notice I'm conflating damp with mould too. It's the mould that is dangerous, not the damp as far as I can tell...

[Arborbridge]

But on the whole, mould is caused by the way people use the building.
Drying washing indoors, showering or cooking with the window closed, not opening windows every day.

I, like I'm sure millions and millions of other people, do exactly that for several months of the year, and I, like I'm sure millions and millions of other people, don't have a mould problem. Maybe it's more to do with the buildings, rather than how the millions and millions use them....

I'd say as a lifelong builder (and LL of 25 years) it is about half-and-half. Which is why I feel very uneasy about this whole LL vilification thing.

I think there will be LLs up and down the land thinking any damp problems that seem tenant-related are going result in a S21 eviction, should a law be introduced holding LLs responsible for all damp problems whatever the cause. What else can they do? I've seen rented properties occupied by families who cook constantly and never open the windows, for example. What IS a LL to do in such a situation?

This tragic case could result in the classic "Hard cases make bad law" scenario. I dread to think how this will place more, and unreasonable, regulations on the shoulders of LLs.

I've no idea what went on in the case of this poor boy, but I know mould is a recurring problem with tenants generally in a couple of our flats. It seems the airflow is not great, but we have seen interesting variations over the years as different tenants leave. Mostly, there is no problem at all, apart from some in the bathroom, around the bath sealant. But last year we where shocked on making a social visit to one tenant at how terrible the mould was - and he hadn't bothered to report it. The walls were damp through to the extent that I was worried about the plasterboard or fabric of the walls.
This is a flat we've had for a decade with no reports of mould previously: its state was entirely due to the tenant not taking appropriate actions, but who would believe us? A neighbouring flat we own in the same block has a different tenant and there's no trace of mould. However, talking to that more worldy wise tenant, he explained that he has to take steps to prevent condensation from doing damage. He airs the place frequently, and in winter needs to run a dehumidifier in the bedroom in the morning to keep the walls dry.

Buildings are often not well thought out, but equally, tenants do not take responsibility for their own lives, and often this is through lack of knowledge or life skills. There is a lack of common-sense, and LLs should not be reponsible or carry the can for this lack of "nous". Anyone owning a flat wouldn't just sit there, they would try to work out what as going on and take steps to mitigate it. Having said that, of course, one would expect landlords to try to keep on top of the problem and advise tenants how to deal with the problem.

Incidentally, in the case of our flat which was almost ruined, we bought the tenant a dehumidifier and he ran it until the walls were dried through, and then repainted. I haven't yet seen the result, but I fear now winter is coming on and electricity prices have gone through the roof that conditions will backslide.

BTW, I believe buildings need to be aired, they need to breath - and this drives a coach and horses through all the modern nonsense about massive amounts of insulation. You cannot help losing heat energy when keeping a house dry.

Arb.

[XFool]

In starting this thread I was hoping to debate the issues of damp and mould in rentals rather than poor Awaab Ishak specifically.

OK.

So would we as a society prefer to remove from the rental market all properties that suffer from damp? Whatever the reason for the damp?

Who is saying that and where are they saying it? Apart from on here, of course.

Then again, why would we not want to reasonably "remove" from the market, rental or otherwise, properties that "suffer from damp" ?

Or is the UK (England?) these days completely dedicated to project 'Back to the Future'?

[modellingman]

I think there are a few issues here. And I will declare an interest, I am a landlord and currently rent out 6 properties.

The landlord is a housing association, Rochdale Boroughwide Housing. I have little experience or knowledge of housing associations in general and know nothing at all about this particular one other than what I have read on its website.

It is a large landlord - c13,000 homes rented out. I note that Gove has publicly summoned the CEO, Gareth Swarbrick, to explain precisely what happened. I suspect that a lot of the fallout from this will be directed at housing associations and, perhaps, very large private landlords (who Gove previously had in his sights over high rise cladding issues).

More insight into the causes of the dampness here: https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1592802533545852929

Timeline of events taken from: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/two- ... -67g2qkrtf

August 2016 Faisal Abdullah moves into flat on Rochdale’s Freehold estate.

October 2017 He complains to Rochdale Boroughwide Housing (RBH) of “black dots” of mould in kitchen but is told to paint over it.

October 2018 Reports that the mould has returned.

May 2019 Following the birth of Awaab, the family makes repeated complaints to RBH and asks to move.

June 2020 Abdullah instructs solicitors to initiate a claim over the mould. Daniel McVey, a surveyor at Rochdale Council, who visits the flat, says it is “unfit for human habitation”.

July 2020 A health visitor contacts RBH to raise the matter and an inspection that month finds mould in the kitchen, bathroom and a bedroom cupboard.

September 2020 A midwife raises concerns with children’s services over the potential impact on Awaab’s health.

December 2020 Awaab dies at Oldham hospital.

modellingman

[Gerry557]

We all know that how we use a property can affect damp and mould build up.

Keeping it empty might result in no mould but you don't pay rent not to live in a place.

There are lots of factors in this particular issue. From the associations point of view, the none working ventilation and communication and IT issues go against them.

Taking him to the wrong medical facilities and being transferred to another wrong facility was also a factor.

The language issues were another factor.

None individually life threatening but the culmination of lots of small mistakes adds up.

I don't know if the coroner looked at previous tenants and any of their issues to see a trend. Of course the families experience of the mould situation was also mentioned. I assume they were in the poorer end of the spectrum so probably not used to having the heating on and windows open but that probably goes for a lot of tenants generally.