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Energy costs. Oh dear.......

Making your money go further
funduffer
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Re: Energy costs. Oh dear.......

#649619

Postby funduffer » February 27th, 2024, 11:24 am

BullDog wrote:
funduffer wrote:We may need a few.

A certain amount of Nuclear baseload would provide resilience and energy security to the grid. This could come from batteries, pumped hydro, interconnectors or nuclear. With very large amounts of wind and solar it may not be much but probably best to have some nuclear as an insurance.

It is a cost question whether these are 3GW behemoths like Sizewell, or smaller 0.5GW SMR's like Rolls-Royce's:

https://www.rolls-royce-smr.com/why-rolls-royce-smr

It all comes down to whether you believe the lower costs of SMR's or not.

FD

I do not. There is not a linear or simple relationship between cost of a nuclear power plant and it's generating capacity. And that's no different to virtually every other type of process or energy facility. In particular, nuclear facilities bear overheads that are considerable virtually independent of size.

One example, there's little difference to the control, safeguarding and protection systems on a ~1.5gw steam turbine generator (as Hinckley C) compared to ~0.5gw steam turbine generator (as SMR proposal). And that's the conventional, non nuclear side of the facility. Cost savings? Virtually nil.

I think the main cost savings claimed for SMR's is that much of the kit can be produced in carefully controlled factory conditions rather than out in the open on-site. Whether this is true or not remains to be seen.

https://www.rolls-royce-smr.com/press/f ... mr-factory

The three sites from which Rolls-Royce SMR will select the location of its first factory have been announced. The heavy pressure vessels (HPV) factory will produce components for a fleet of small modular reactors (SMR) designed and built here in the UK.

· The International Advanced Manufacturing Park (IAMP), Sunderland and South Tyneside

· Teesworks, Teesside

· Gateway, Deeside


FD

BullDog
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Re: Energy costs. Oh dear.......

#649640

Postby BullDog » February 27th, 2024, 12:44 pm

funduffer wrote:
BullDog wrote:I do not. There is not a linear or simple relationship between cost of a nuclear power plant and it's generating capacity. And that's no different to virtually every other type of process or energy facility. In particular, nuclear facilities bear overheads that are considerable virtually independent of size.

One example, there's little difference to the control, safeguarding and protection systems on a ~1.5gw steam turbine generator (as Hinckley C) compared to ~0.5gw steam turbine generator (as SMR proposal). And that's the conventional, non nuclear side of the facility. Cost savings? Virtually nil.

I think the main cost savings claimed for SMR's is that much of the kit can be produced in carefully controlled factory conditions rather than out in the open on-site. Whether this is true or not remains to be seen.

https://www.rolls-royce-smr.com/press/f ... mr-factory

The three sites from which Rolls-Royce SMR will select the location of its first factory have been announced. The heavy pressure vessels (HPV) factory will produce components for a fleet of small modular reactors (SMR) designed and built here in the UK.

· The International Advanced Manufacturing Park (IAMP), Sunderland and South Tyneside

· Teesworks, Teesside

· Gateway, Deeside


FD

The concept of modularisation of course is nothing new. Most large energy engineering projects are modular these days. The cost saving of course is because the modules are built in Asia and deployed wherever in the world. That's simply not going to happen for nuclear plant deployed in the UK. Regulatory issues won't allow it. Without the Asian construction yards, modularisation doesn't make that much of a difference to costs in the scheme of things.

I seriously hope it happens. Until then, it's just vapour really.

scotview
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Re: Energy costs. Oh dear.......

#650182

Postby scotview » February 29th, 2024, 11:24 am

I've just submitted my February readings and checked my usage/costs for the last three years. I've also had a look at the UK gas price history. There is zero correlation between UK wholesale gas price and energy cost. The figures below are for month of January, total energy.

2024 Bill £300 Usage 3158 kWh UK gas price 88 GBp/therm
2023 Bill £400 Usage 3112 kWh UK gas price 158 GBp/therm
2022 Bill £150 Usage 2881 kWh UK gas price 255 GBp/therm

There is no correlation between Cost of Consumer's Bill and Wholesale gas price. This is not an open market, looks like miss selling on an epic scale to me.

Tedx
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Re: Energy costs. Oh dear.......

#652848

Postby Tedx » March 11th, 2024, 9:34 am

An update on Highview Power / Compressed/liquid air energy storage. It seems they have had planning issues along with the inevitable COVID delays, but are now moving ahead.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjERw-Ol-_s&t=10s

Cheap, easy construction, simple, well established technologies, no difficult to mine minerals. Seems like there's real potential here.

XFool
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Re: Energy costs. Oh dear.......

#652892

Postby XFool » March 11th, 2024, 1:35 pm

scotview wrote:I've just submitted my February readings and checked my usage/costs for the last three years. I've also had a look at the UK gas price history. There is zero correlation between UK wholesale gas price and energy cost. The figures below are for month of January, total energy.

2024 Bill £300 Usage 3158 kWh UK gas price 88 GBp/therm
2023 Bill £400 Usage 3112 kWh UK gas price 158 GBp/therm
2022 Bill £150 Usage 2881 kWh UK gas price 255 GBp/therm

There is no correlation between Cost of Consumer's Bill and Wholesale gas price. This is not an open market, looks like miss selling on an epic scale to me.

I really don't know, I'm just guessing, but could it be you need to use look ahead pricing? That is, is the current price of fuel to the consumer a reflection of the current wholesale price of gas or does it in practice lag? Equally, is the wholesale price of gas reflected in future consumer prices rather than the current price?

I don't work in the industry and am not a direct shareholder in same!

Tedx
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Re: Energy costs. Oh dear.......

#653321

Postby Tedx » March 13th, 2024, 5:27 pm

UK renewables industry concerned over government’s electricity market reform plan

if they're concerned, then it must be good for us.

The proposed shift to zonal pricing, aimed at restructuring the wholesale electricity market, is met with apprehension by industry leaders.

While zonal pricing theoretically aims to incentivise generation closer to demand and alleviate transmission grid constraints, concerns persist regarding its potential to introduce additional market uncertainty and inflate capital costs for renewable energy projects.


Hmmm.


https://www.energylivenews.com/2024/03/ ... form-plan/

Tedx
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Re: Energy costs. Oh dear.......

#655743

Postby Tedx » March 25th, 2024, 10:31 am

Re Conductering

Summary - existing pylons are ok and can be reused (saving a whole load of time on planning and permissions) & modern cables are much, much better than older cables in efficiency and logevity.

'Just have a think'

https://youtu.be/VKpDvCGqUv8?si=8FkWGCm3k6Kah0-8


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