Energy costs. Oh dear.......

[Bminusrob]

So, the curve ball is this. I have paid in advance for electricity I have not yet used.

Is it now OK for me to mis-declare my meter reading, so that my balance is reduced to zero, before the price per unit is increased?

I think the simple point is that where energy-unit prices change, then it's only right to provide accurate meter readings when requested, so that the energy companies can charge you correctly for the energy you've used, set against unit-prices for when you've used them.

Not doing so is being fraudulent in one way or another...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

Not sure I agree with that. I think your argument only works if the bill me for my usage retrospectively.

If I go to my local builders' merchants and pay an agreed price for some items, but some are to be collected later, if I have paid the agreed price, I do not expect to pay more than the previously agreed price when I colect the outstanding items. Or, maybe I am just grumpy because the electricity company is holding on to my money. Don't even get me started on the excess levels of the standing charge, or the fact that I am subsidising rich people with electric cars who have "special" electric car tariffs

[Itsallaguess]

So, the curve ball is this. I have paid in advance for electricity I have not yet used.

Is it now OK for me to mis-declare my meter reading, so that my balance is reduced to zero, before the price per unit is increased?

I think the simple point is that where energy-unit prices change, then it's only right to provide accurate meter readings when requested, so that the energy companies can charge you correctly for the energy you've used, set against unit-prices for when you've used them.

Not doing so is being fraudulent in one way or another...

Not sure I agree with that.

I think your argument only works if they bill me for my usage retrospectively

But isn't that exactly what they are doing?

They might take creditable funds from you in advance, but they actually take from those funds only what they need to actually pay for what you've used and for when you've used it, and for all that to work properly and fairly, there needs to be a level of honesty on the part of the consumer...

Yes, you've got credited funds on your account balance, but that's just what it is - a balance of cash credit for when you use further energy...

You've not 'paid in advance' for any 'cheaper' units of that energy at all...

I think you should find all those details in the terms and conditions of your current energy supplier, and if you've signed up to those t&c's, and if as I strongly suspect they also include instructions as to their expectations of accurate meter readings on demand, then any attempts for material gain by not following those terms and conditions must be seen as being fraudulent, surely...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[Maroochydore]

[
But how can you be 'quids in' if it's not theft?

I budget my costs (with my trusty spreadsheet) and keep the money in a bank account.

If I allow for a 10% increase in my budget and manage to only spend an extra 5%, I'm quids in.

You could perhaps ask the site owners to open a more accurate 'Stealing Your Means' board though?

As I wrote earlier, it's not stealing, I'm paying in advance. Payment in advance was certainly acceptable to the majority of suppliers at the April hike for those on pre-payment meters. They could buy their energy at the current price and use it when the higher price kicked in. This is basically what I am doing, except I don't have a pre-payment meter.

[Itsallaguess]

You could perhaps ask the site owners to open a more accurate 'Stealing Your Means' board though?

As I wrote earlier, it's not stealing, I'm paying in advance.

Payment in advance was certainly acceptable to the majority of suppliers at the April hike for those on pre-payment meters. They could buy their energy at the current price and use it when the higher price kicked in.

This is basically what I am doing, except I don't have a pre-payment meter.

Two totally different circumstances, with two totally different sets of terms and conditions.

You're self-applying someone else's terms and conditions to your own situation, and it's dishonest to do so.

You're not following the terms and conditions that you've signed up to with your current agreement, and worse than that - given that you're likely to be on an improved unit cost for your energy by signing up to the pre-payment terms that you have signed up to, compared to those pre-payment users, then to see you try to self-apply terms and conditions from what are often poorer people on pre-payment meters, who have no lee-way for such dishonesty, then I think that's pretty shameful to be honest, beyond the initial lying about the meter readings themselves...

I'd just own that dishonest situation and be done with it.

You're unlikely to change what you're doing by anything discussed here, but please, at least be honest about that even if you can't be honest with your energy suppliers...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[scrumpyjack]

Your contract with the supplier is that you pay the price for each unit at the time you consume it, and that is also the basis on which they pay the grid. If you choose to pay more than your current consumption that credit balance will be applied to future consumption at the rate applicable when you use it. It does not entitle you to use electricity at a past unit rate.

[Maroochydore]

Your contract with the supplier is that you pay the price for each unit at the time you consume it, and that is also the basis on which they pay the grid.

Wrong, all suppliers buy forward and pay their contract price. Those that didn't, bought on the wholesale market and are no longer with us.

Also my contract with my supplier doesn't mention any such thing. Neither do I pay for each unit at the time I consume it, that is just plain crazy.

[pje16]

In my book it is theft

hope you sleep well

It's not theft because

a) I'm paying for my energy

and

b) I'm paying in advance so the supplier has my money for product not yet supplied.

I sleep very well knowing I'm quids in.

But how can you be 'quids in' if it's not theft?

It is Living Below Your Means after all.

You could perhaps ask the site owners to open a more accurate 'Stealing Your Means' board though?

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

I'm talking about knowingly giving a higher reading just before a rate rise, so that you get charged at a lower rate
If you don't see that as wrong we clearly have different values in life

[servodude]

In my book it is theft

hope you sleep well

It's not theft because

a) I'm paying for my energy

and

b) I'm paying in advance so the supplier has my money for product not yet supplied.

I sleep very well knowing I'm quids in.

But how can you be 'quids in' if it's not theft?

It is Living Below Your Means after all.

You could perhaps ask the site owners to open a more accurate 'Stealing Your Means' board though?

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

I'm talking about knowingly giving a higher reading just before a rate rise, so that you get charged at a lower rate
If you don't see that as wrong we clearly have different values in life

It would certainly appear to be fraudulent, unless the contract with the supplier allows for such an approach (e.g. a customer provided estimate being allowed because the meter isn't easily accessible, or a literal pay-in-advance scheme)
"Theft" though is stretching it a bit.

[Watis]

Your contract with the supplier is that you pay the price for each unit at the time you consume it, and that is also the basis on which they pay the grid.

Wrong, all suppliers buy forward and pay their contract price. Those that didn't, bought on the wholesale market and are no longer with us.

Also my contract with my supplier doesn't mention any such thing. Neither do I pay for each unit at the time I consume it, that is just plain crazy.

Whilst I've never sent incorrect readings myself, I am left wondering why it is wrong when I can buy first and second class postage stamps prior to a price increase - and then use them at any time after the price has increased!

And, if the energy company have bought forward at a lower price, aren't they having their cake and eating it?

Watis

[BullDog]

So........ We have now switched electric and gas from OVO to Octopus Go. The SMETS2 meters have swapped over. Everything seems OK. We are now in the habit already of only running white goods and PHEV charging between 00.30 and 04.30 each night on the EV tariff. We think that accounts for well over half of our total electricity consumption.

Unfortunately, we can't work any sensible way of reducing our gas consumption so we just have to live with a gas price that has increased almost 3x.

One remaining fly in the ointment is that although the smart meters are working - The supplied remote monitor from OVO doesn't work and Octopus will have to send us a new one. What a daft thing to have to do.

[Mike4]

In my book it is theft
hope you sleep well

It's not theft because a) I'm paying for my energy and b) I'm paying in advance so the supplier has my money for product not yet supplied.
I sleep very well knowing I'm quids in.

Really? How many quids? Several of them I'd imagine, possibly running into double figures!

Is it really worth the effort?

[scrumpyjack]

In my book it is theft
hope you sleep well

It's not theft because a) I'm paying for my energy and b) I'm paying in advance so the supplier has my money for product not yet supplied.
I sleep very well knowing I'm quids in.

Really? How many quids? Several of them I'd imagine, possibly running into double figures!

Is it really worth the effort?

It certainly is fraud to give a falsely inflated meter reading before prices rise

https://www.lancs.live/news/cost-of-liv ... t-23533891

[NotSure]

[
It certainly is fraud to give a falsely inflated meter reading before prices rise

https://www.lancs.live/news/cost-of-liv ... t-23533891

Of course it is! I'll bet many will be trying though. If there is a big and obvious discrepancy, they'll be out for a meter reading. Otherwise, many just a photo? Better hone your photoshop skills

[UncleEbenezer]

It certainly is fraud to give a falsely inflated meter reading before prices rise

What about simply paying their estimated bill before the price rise?

Did that in 1990, for my first quarter after moving into a flat. It covered the whole year, less something under a fiver.

[scrumpyjack]

It certainly is fraud to give a falsely inflated meter reading before prices rise

What about simply paying their estimated bill before the price rise?

Did that in 1990, for my first quarter after moving into a flat. It covered the whole year, less something under a fiver.

Well if they have sent an estimated bill without insisting on a reading, I can't see it is fraud simply to pay it. But if you deliberately give them a false reading, that would be fraud in my book, but IANAL

[scotview]

My fixed rate contract ends today, so I've downloaded my energy use and cost from Scottish Power, in case they lose the data.
I've plotted a chart of monthly electricity and gas usage since 2019. Now, just imagine the cost if all that heating was to be done via electricity instead of gas, doesn't bare thinking about.

[BullDog]

My fixed rate contract ends today, so I've downloaded my energy use and cost from Scottish Power, in case they lose the data.
I've plotted a chart of monthly electricity and gas usage since 2019. Now, just imagine the cost if all that heating was to be done via electricity instead of gas, doesn't bare thinking about.

And I am afraid that's exactly what the government wants. There's even ideas being punted around to fine companies that fit gas boilers and don't fit enough heat pumps to meet some arbitrary target.

[bungeejumper]

There's even ideas being punted around to fine companies that fit gas boilers and don't fit enough heat pumps to meet some arbitrary target.

I'm sure I don't know how that's going to work? None of the self-employed Gas Safe plumbers I know are fitting heat pumps, because it's a totally different technology (and indeed a totally different approach to heating), and they say they wouldn't really know what they were doing.

Our own regular boiler servicing company, an eight-man outfit, says it has considered getting its staff retrained, but at the moment it's an either/or proposition - you either fit boilers or heat pumps (with all the attendant issues around insulation, noise abatement, special rules for conservation areas etc), and the skills just don't correlate.

Mind you, there are some proper cowboys installing heat pumps. Think of it the other way round. Would you let a heat pump engineer fit your gas boiler?

BJ

[AF62]

There's even ideas being punted around to fine companies that fit gas boilers and don't fit enough heat pumps to meet some arbitrary target.

There was an interesting interview on the BBC Radio 4 'You and Yours' consumer programme recently where they interviewed two people, one a proponent for heat-pumps and the other for hydrogen boilers - https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0019k37 (it is towards the end of the episode).

Amusingly the heat-pump proponent ended up agreeing they were rubbish for most people but needed to be installed regardless to save the environment.

[Mike4]

Mind you, there are some proper cowboys installing heat pumps.
BJ

[/quote]


Point of Order...

The cowboys are the ones designing and specifying the heat pumps badly, not necessarily the installers installing them.

The thing is, with gas boilers the same bod specifies as installs (often), and s/he adds in 10% here and 20% there willy nilly so gas boilers end up being obscenely over-sized, but work really well!

With heat pumps it works differently, from what I read on the subject. Doing the heat loss calculations accurately and specifying the gear to be installed correctly is really important and this is where all the corners are available to be cut. This work is also done separately by a specifier with different qualifications from the installer, rather than by the same bloke who turns up with the van to put it all in. So the 'cowboy' dimension lies not so much in the installer as in the office bod who does the specifying.

Further, once tightly matched to the heat load, a heat pump cannot respond quickly to a sudden rise in demand (the "turn the heating up luv, it's a bit chilly tonight" sort of thing) and if the specifier bod did not properly educate the future user, then they are gonna be a bit taken aback when nothing much happens immediately, and probably badmouth the system to the neighbours or in the pub.

Edit to get my HTML quoting right, and to add this:

BJ, what tales do you have about cowboy installers? One hears allusions to this but rarely any details. Do you know of any specific cases please? What was done wrong?

Thanks.