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Extraordinary situation

including wills and probate
GoSeigen
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Extraordinary situation

#645369

Postby GoSeigen » February 7th, 2024, 3:17 pm

Looking for general thoughts here, I can't give too much detail because the law prohibits publication of details which might identify the case/parties to the case.

What should one do when a summons is issued by a magistrates court on an official form for that purpose, but there has patently been no crime and the law stated to have been contravened is prima facie not applicable to the situation -- further the summons document has not been completed so that details of the alleged crime are left blank and it appears the document has been issued solely as a pretext to force the defendant to court to discuss an entirely different (probably civil) matter in the presence of the court officials?

On enquiry at the court the case file is entirely empty save for the issued summons document. In these circumstances it is difficult to take the summons at all seriously, yet non-appearance at court is an imprisonable offence. Given the extraordinary irregularity of the service and failure to follow any of the law, regulations and rules of court pertaining to procedure in prosecuting the crime, is there a procedural exception that can be taken to the entire summons process?


GS
P.S. I hasten to add this is not UK, but similar legal process.

tjh290633
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Re: Extraordinary situation

#645377

Postby tjh290633 » February 7th, 2024, 3:32 pm

Isn't this analogous with the sub poena, as used in the USA?

TJH

GoSeigen
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Re: Extraordinary situation

#645383

Postby GoSeigen » February 7th, 2024, 3:57 pm

tjh290633 wrote:Isn't this analogous with the sub poena, as used in the USA?

TJH


It's not a subpoena. There is a subpoena process in this jurisdiction, but this seems to be plain abuse of a legal process to achieve some other aim.

An example is that the relevant law states that the summons must be completed by the police if they are satisfied on the evidence of an affidavit from a complainant that a crime has occurred, and then served by the police on the accused and submitted to the court, yet this summons originated from one of the clerks of the court who simply used the police to serve the document. No affidavit from the complainant appears to exist and the police had no information on which to assess whether a crime had occurred. The police have no record of any complaint. So the correct lawful procedure completely ignored.


GS

scrumpyjack
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Re: Extraordinary situation

#645390

Postby scrumpyjack » February 7th, 2024, 4:27 pm

The defendant could presumably just turn up and refuse to discuss anything other than the matter for which the summons was issued?

Clitheroekid
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Re: Extraordinary situation

#645415

Postby Clitheroekid » February 7th, 2024, 5:55 pm

GoSeigen wrote:P.S. I hasten to add this is not UK, but similar legal process.

On so little information nobody could hope to give meaningful advice even if it were in the UK.

The fact that it's in an unnamed foreign jurisdiction makes the question impossible to answer.

GoSeigen
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Re: Extraordinary situation

#645490

Postby GoSeigen » February 8th, 2024, 6:49 am

I apologise for the sketchy details in the OP and follow-up.

The intention is to apply to the court to dismiss the case in light of the procedural irregularities, listing in the supporting affidavit the defects that indicate there has been some impropriety on the part of a particular court official. In the affidavit is it best to a. just state facts which support the application and demonstrate the problems surrounding the case, or b. hint at the impropriety suspected or c. explicitly complain and pray an order to investigate the situation or claim some particular relief from the court system itself? Is it appropriate to draw attention to the name of the court clerk who signed off the documents and presumably assisted the complainant or should he just be referred to as the clerk? Or would it be more appropriate/usual where impropriety is suspected to raise it in a different forum, e.g. a complaint to the Court management or an application under another law or referral to a higher court?

We're quite taken aback at the brazenness of this ill-founded case and can't help but suspect that 1. this is not the first or last instance and 2. that abuse of this law and associated regulations puts genuine complainants at risk because a cavalier approach to procedure would allow defendants to have their case dismissed and evade justice. Of course it also brings the court and justice system into disrepute.


GS

88V8
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Re: Extraordinary situation

#645538

Postby 88V8 » February 8th, 2024, 11:10 am

GoSeigen wrote:....In the affidavit is it best to a. just state facts which support the application and demonstrate the problems surrounding the case, or b. hint at the impropriety suspected or c. explicitly complain and pray an order to investigate the situation or claim some particular relief from the court system itself?

....We're quite taken aback at the brazenness of this ill-founded case and can't help but suspect that 1. this is not the first or last instance and 2. that abuse of this law and associated regulations puts genuine complainants at risk because a cavalier approach to procedure would allow defendants to have their case dismissed and evade justice. Of course it also brings the court and justice system into disrepute.

Not knowing the soundness of the courts system and the police where you live, I would go for a.
Depending on the outcome, you could then raise a subsequent complaint against the court official, but even in the UK one might wonder whether the court will just circle the wagons and blow you off.
Unless you have time and money to burn I would do whatever will cause you the least grief and leave the crusading to someone else.

V8

didds
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Re: Extraordinary situation

#645559

Postby didds » February 8th, 2024, 12:32 pm

scrumpyjack wrote:The defendant could presumably just turn up and refuse to discuss anything other than the matter for which the summons was issued?


and as no matter was listed on the summons there is nothing to discuss :-)

scrumpyjack
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Re: Extraordinary situation

#645667

Postby scrumpyjack » February 8th, 2024, 5:16 pm

didds wrote:
scrumpyjack wrote:The defendant could presumably just turn up and refuse to discuss anything other than the matter for which the summons was issued?


and as no matter was listed on the summons there is nothing to discuss :-)


Easy then. Turn up and say nothing :D

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Re: Extraordinary situation

#645771

Postby servodude » February 8th, 2024, 11:56 pm

88V8 wrote:
GoSeigen wrote:....In the affidavit is it best to a. just state facts which support the application and demonstrate the problems surrounding the case, or b. hint at the impropriety suspected or c. explicitly complain and pray an order to investigate the situation or claim some particular relief from the court system itself?

....We're quite taken aback at the brazenness of this ill-founded case and can't help but suspect that 1. this is not the first or last instance and 2. that abuse of this law and associated regulations puts genuine complainants at risk because a cavalier approach to procedure would allow defendants to have their case dismissed and evade justice. Of course it also brings the court and justice system into disrepute.

Not knowing the soundness of the courts system and the police where you live, I would go for a.
Depending on the outcome, you could then raise a subsequent complaint against the court official, but even in the UK one might wonder whether the court will just circle the wagons and blow you off.
Unless you have time and money to burn I would do whatever will cause you the least grief and leave the crusading to someone else.

V8


I've just had to clean up my coffee after I briefly thought you referenced some lost John Wayne porno ....

GoSeigen
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Re: Extraordinary situation

#647291

Postby GoSeigen » February 16th, 2024, 10:11 am

A magistrate dealt with this case in court today, in chambers with only the two parties and an interpreter present. The magistrate agreed the service was irregular, with both incorrect forms served and failure to serve accompanying affidavits. However, he wouldn't entertain a dismissal of the case, but ordered that the hearing be adjourned to allow the applicant/complainant an opportunity to re-serve his documents correctly.

Hopefully when service is effected this time the nature of the complaint will be clearer.


One or two juicy comments from the magistrate:
"[Given the personal nature of the application] I will hear the case in chambers (public excluded). The witness will have to wait outside because if she listens to the discussion she may tailor her evidence based on what is said."
"No one will take minutes as this is not a proper hearing, any minutes necessary will be written by me"
"The police served the original notice but as they made a mess of it we cannot trust them to carry out service again"



GS

GoSeigen
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Re: Extraordinary situation

#647656

Postby GoSeigen » February 18th, 2024, 7:39 am

A notice of motion and proper application have been served now. Bizarrely the new application is for a completely different order under another act entirely. There is a new case number. So even though the magistrate denied a dismissal it seems the applicant has abandoned the previous application.

The criminal accusation also appears to have withered away, dismissed as a "mistake" -- not the court's mistake, mind you, but blamed on the police who were instructed to serve the documents!


GS

88V8
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Re: Extraordinary situation

#647697

Postby 88V8 » February 18th, 2024, 11:07 am

GoSeigen wrote:A notice of motion and proper application have been served now. Bizarrely the new application is for a completely different order under another act entirely. There is a new case number. So even though the magistrate denied a dismissal it seems the applicant has abandoned the previous application.
The criminal accusation also appears to have withered away, dismissed as a "mistake" -- not the court's mistake, mind you, but blamed on the police who were instructed to serve the documents!

As a matter of curiosity are you living in what might generally be regarded as a civilised country?

V8

GoSeigen
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Re: Extraordinary situation

#647701

Postby GoSeigen » February 18th, 2024, 11:15 am

88V8 wrote:
GoSeigen wrote:A notice of motion and proper application have been served now. Bizarrely the new application is for a completely different order under another act entirely. There is a new case number. So even though the magistrate denied a dismissal it seems the applicant has abandoned the previous application.
The criminal accusation also appears to have withered away, dismissed as a "mistake" -- not the court's mistake, mind you, but blamed on the police who were instructed to serve the documents!

As a matter of curiosity are you living in what might generally be regarded as a civilised country?

V8

Ha ha, it aspires to be one, but I wonder sometime... the courts are one of the branches of state and we know how poorly the state performs at times!

I'm coming to the conclusion that there is an "arrangement" between the applicant and a particular court official which is playing havoc with the usual rules and processes of the law!

GS

stevensfo
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Re: Extraordinary situation

#647820

Postby stevensfo » February 18th, 2024, 9:02 pm

GoSeigen wrote:
88V8 wrote:As a matter of curiosity are you living in what might generally be regarded as a civilised country?

V8

Ha ha, it aspires to be one, but I wonder sometime... the courts are one of the branches of state and we know how poorly the state performs at times!

I'm coming to the conclusion that there is an "arrangement" between the applicant and a particular court official which is playing havoc with the usual rules and processes of the law!

GS


I know France and Italy very well. It sounds a bit too dodgy to be France, but I know Italy better and it sounds like normal everyday life to me. 8-)

Southern Italy?


Steve

GoSeigen
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Re: Extraordinary situation

#647843

Postby GoSeigen » February 19th, 2024, 6:51 am

stevensfo wrote:
GoSeigen wrote:Ha ha, it aspires to be one, but I wonder sometime... the courts are one of the branches of state and we know how poorly the state performs at times!

I'm coming to the conclusion that there is an "arrangement" between the applicant and a particular court official which is playing havoc with the usual rules and processes of the law!

GS


I know France and Italy very well. It sounds a bit too dodgy to be France, but I know Italy better and it sounds like normal everyday life to me. 8-)

Southern Italy?


Steve


LOL, I think there have been a few stories about Italy on this very forum! There are many many dodgy places around the world, not least the UK where the police are a joke and government riddled with corruption to mention just two problems...

GS

DrFfybes
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Re: Extraordinary situation

#647853

Postby DrFfybes » February 19th, 2024, 8:27 am

GoSeigen wrote:LOL, I think there have been a few stories about Italy on this very forum! There are many many dodgy places around the world, not least the UK where the police are a joke and government riddled with corruption to mention just two problems...


How dare you. I was told long ago that the Met police was the finest Police Force money could buy.


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