Investment Trusts with 10-year consecutive dividend increases (April 2023)

[Itsallaguess]

I would not be so presumptuous as to make a cross-post on someone else's OP.

If you think that a thread would be of interest to other areas of the site, such as the IT board, then it's not at all 'presumptuous' of you to simply raise a new thread on the IT board, and post a URL link in that new IT thread, cross-posting back to the original thread here, and for the avoidance of any doubt, I'd very much prefer you to do that in future (and have my permission to do so if you somehow thought you 'needed it'...) rather than continue to regularly complain about this type of thing, and bother site moderators with such conventional trivialities which, as Arb has already intimated, most site members are normally quite capable of carrying out under their own steam...

Yet again, you seem to have spent much more time complaining about this type of thing than you'd have spent simply solving your 'issue' by creating your own cross-post on the IT board...

Malcolm's very kindly shown you how to do it in this instance, so please, no excuses next time...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[AJC5001]

Malcolm's very kindly shown you how to do it in this instance, so please, no excuses next time..
Itsallaguess

But Malcolm has locked the cross-post on the Investment Trusts board to prevent posts being added there instead of here,

I thought it needed moderator/admin permissions to lock a thread?

Adrian

[Itsallaguess]

Malcolm's very kindly shown [richfool] how to do it in this instance...

But Malcolm has locked the cross-post on the Investment Trusts board to prevent posts being added there instead of here,

I thought it needed moderator/admin permissions to lock a thread?

There's not usually a need to lock cross-posts once they're created by someone, and the usual accepted convention is that any replies or discussions regarding a crossed-post that's 'created for awareness' would carry on within the main linked thread.

Some examples here where this has clearly been widely understood to be the case -

Cross post to a holiday let agency question - https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=36710

Cross post - fire regs for flats in large building - https://lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=8329

Wasron portfolio review - xpost - - https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=29207

cross post: Three Streams Q3 - https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=36154

Quick method of retrieving YIELD information (cross-post) - https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=37898

Now richfool has been clearly made aware of this normal and accepted convention, and he knows that he's free to create such cross-link posts on the IT board whenever he wishes to, without any moderators having to be bothered by such trivialities, then we can hopefully try and avoid the types of disruptive, off-topic 'post placement' discussions that we've had on this thread in future...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[Itsallaguess]

One of the interesting measures is the 3 year Total Return and on that basis just look at Law Debenture compared to HFEL.

Which would you rather hold?

I hold both HFEL and LWDB, for different reasons.

LWDB came out of looking at past performance and is one of my longest held ITs, along with CTY.

When I say longest, I mean since around the 1980s I believe - way before I needed to think of income generation. Although ITs, the market and managers undoubtedly "morph" this one I've not regretted holding on to.

I've often meant to ditch LWDB because it does not "conform" - it has a rather strange and slightly worrying structure which makes it riskier in my perception. OTOH, it seems to have worked rather well.

I guess the question is, if one is living on the dividends only, does one have enough capital to live on a low yield?

LWDB is a moderate yield at present, but in the past has been much lower, so I don't think it would have been bought to supply my pension requirement.

It's interesting that you use the words 'moderate yield' there Arb, because I actually think LWDB is a good example of where I've moved towards in terms of income-investment over the years, where I've firmly shifted away from 'chasing yield', and now seek out much more moderate yields with more stable overall returns...

As an example of why this is important to me, we can compare the five-year total-returns of something like LWDB with some perennial higher-yield favourites such as Vodafone, Persimmon, and Taylor Wimpy below -




Source for above comparison chart - https://www.hl.co.uk/funds/fund-discounts,-prices--and--factsheets/search-results/f/fundsmith-equity-class-i-accumulation/charts


Hopefully the above long-term charts speak for themselves, but importantly, LWDB is actually a good example of an income-investment that has looked to have maintained a steady long-term 'moderate yield', which might actually be deceiving for potential income-investors if that's the only metric of investigation people might carry out, because looking a little deeper, we can see that it's managed to raise it's actual dividend payouts over the years quite impressively, and that 'steady moderate yield' is actually a cloak of a metric that hides the fact that the underlying yield then tends to 'stay moderate' only by way of it's usefully rising share price...




Sources for above images -

Dividend Yield History - https://www.dividenddata.co.uk/dividend-yield.py?epic=LWDB

Dividend Payout History - https://www.dividenddata.co.uk/dividend-history.py?epic=LWDB

Share Price History - https://www.google.com/finance/quote/LWDB:LON?window=MAX


Personally, I'd now be very happy indeed if all my income-investment holdings were to deliver long-term dividend and share-price histories similar to the above LWDB 'moderate yield' progress...

Long gone are the days where I seek out ultra-high-yield, volatile holdings, that tended to crash and burn with a frequency that made it difficult for me to plan for my long-term future.

Liverpool fans are well known for their 'We All Dream of a Team of Carraghers' song, given his huge work-rate and steady, reliable delivery over the very long term for the club, and I can definitely say that if I were able to build a diverse, moderately-yielding income-portfolio based on a 'team of LWDB's', then I'd be a very happy income-investor indeed...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[Dod101]

Thanks IAAG. I agree with all you say in your post re Law Debenture. Not sure about the Liverpool comments though as I tend to favour the teams down the M62 to the east, but never mind.

I think that is a good sweet spot where the yield of Law Debenture lies and although I do not hold I am not sure why not. It is certainly one of the more attractive ITs on your original chart IMHO. In fact I might see if I can bring it into my portfolio although I am content with it as it is and so far, my income is a bit ahead of last year at the same time, with just the most minor tweak.

Anyway this is the first working day of the new financial year and I must get my bed and ISAing underway.

Dod

[richfool]

I would not be so presumptuous as to make a cross-post on someone else's OP.

If you think that a thread would be of interest to other areas of the site, such as the IT board, then it's not at all 'presumptuous' of you to simply raise a new thread on the IT board, and post a URL link in that new IT thread, cross-posting back to the original thread here, and for the avoidance of any doubt, I'd very much prefer you to do that in future (and have my permission to do so if you somehow thought you 'needed it'...) rather than continue to regularly complain about this type of thing, and bother site moderators with such conventional trivialities which, as Arb has already intimated, most site members are normally quite capable of carrying out under their own steam...

Yet again, you seem to have spent much more time complaining about this type of thing than you'd have spent simply solving your 'issue' by creating your own cross-post on the IT board...

Malcolm's very kindly shown you how to do it in this instance, so please, no excuses next time...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

I know how to make cross-posts, thank you, and have made them previously in relation to MY own posts, as indeed others often do in repsect of their own posts.

This all ignores the fact that if you had posted your table on the Investment Trust board, none of the above would be (or have been) necessary, .... by whoever.

So upon reflection, I see no reason why I should cross-reference your posts on to other boards simply because you choose not to post them on the relevant board in the first place.

Enough said by me.

[Itsallaguess]

I know how to make cross-posts, thank you, and have made them previously in relation to MY own posts, as indeed others often do in repsect of their own posts.

This all ignores the fact that if you had posted your table on the Investment Trust board, none of the above would be (or have been) necessary, .... by whoever.

So upon reflection, I see no reason why I should cross-reference your posts on to other boards simply because you choose not to post them on the relevant board in the first place.

Which is all fine and dandy...

What's not fine and dandy, however, is when you choose to involve moderators in this process, and start to discuss the movement of threads that I've chosen to place here, on the High Yield Shares & Strategies board, and which you seem to personally deem should be 'best placed' somewhere else...

That's absolutely not acceptable when doing so would over-ride my decision as to where I choose to post a new income-investment related thread, all of which is well within the accepted rules of this site.

Your position on this then begins to look like one that's well beyond 'community awareness', which could clearly be satisfied with a suitable and really quite simple cross-link post, and into some very odd-looking controlling behaviour, which I continue to struggle to understand...

Read, ignore, cross-link - you can do whatever you like, but PLEASE - stop with trying to move them richfool, when it's got absolutely nothing to do with you where I choose to start new income-investment related threads...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[richfool]

Which is all fine and dandy...

What's not fine and dandy, however, is when you choose to involve moderators in this process, and start to discuss the movement of threads that I've chosen to place here, on the High Yield Shares & Strategies board, and which you seem to personally deem should be 'best placed' somewhere else...

That's absolutely not acceptable when doing so would over-ride my decision as to where I choose to post a new income-investment related thread, all of which is well within the accepted rules of this site.

Your position on this then begins to look like one that's well beyond 'community awareness', which could clearly be satisfied with a suitable and really quite simple cross-link post, and into some very odd-looking controlling behaviour, which I continue to struggle to understand...

Read, ignore, cross-link - you can do whatever you like, but PLEASE - stop with trying to move them richfool, when it's got absolutely nothing to do with you where I choose to start new income-investment related threads...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

IAAG, For clarification, I neither involved moderators, nor did I report your post. I have no idea how Malcolm came to be involved.

[Itsallaguess]

Which is all fine and dandy...

What's not fine and dandy, however, is when you choose to involve moderators in this process, and start to discuss the movement of threads that I've chosen to place here, on the High Yield Shares & Strategies board, and which you seem to personally deem should be 'best placed' somewhere else...

That's absolutely not acceptable when doing so would over-ride my decision as to where I choose to post a new income-investment related thread, all of which is well within the accepted rules of this site.

Your position on this then begins to look like one that's well beyond 'community awareness', which could clearly be satisfied with a suitable and really quite simple cross-link post, and into some very odd-looking controlling behaviour, which I continue to struggle to understand...

Read, ignore, cross-link - you can do whatever you like, but PLEASE - stop with trying to move them richfool, when it's got absolutely nothing to do with you where I choose to start new income-investment related threads...

IAAG, For clarification, I neither involved moderators, nor did I report your post. I have no idea how Malcolm came to be involved.

You have done in the past, as you and I well know, and your continued insistence on this thread as to where it 'should have been posted' is something I continue to see as being extremely unhelpful and off-topic, on a thread where I'd much prefer to concentrate on the actual subject in hand...

I would please ask that you desist in continuing with that type of off-topic discussion when such a 'community awareness' issue that you feel so strongly about can be simply solved by you posting a cross-link post wherever you think might be necessary.

If you choose not to do so, then that's fine, but don't then continue to complain about the placement of my threads...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[Arborbridge]

Personally, I'd now be very happy indeed if all my income-investment holdings were to deliver long-term dividend and share-price histories similar to the above LWDB 'moderate yield' progress...

Long gone are the days where I seek out ultra-high-yield, volatile holdings, that tended to crash and burn with a frequency that made it difficult for me to plan for my long-term future.

Liverpool fans are well known for their 'We All Dream of a Team of Carraghers' song, given his huge work-rate and steady, reliable delivery over the very long term for the club, and I can definitely say that if I were able to build a diverse, moderately-yielding income-portfolio based on a 'team of LWDB's', then I'd be a very happy income-investor indeed...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

I can only agree with you. Higher yield comes in when one is struggling a bit to produce enough income - or perhaps where one is clever enough to spot value anomalies as a "value investor". When one has enough income, it is probably a sage thing to go down yield a little - though it's always tempting to go for the higher yield if one is an inveterate HYPer!

Just one caution - the key is a moderate yield with growth. I can show you examples of moderate or low yield without growth among my single company shares - a relevant example being Tesco. Almost never high yield, and equally almost never in positive return territory. Maybe high time to ditch after ten years waiting! Let no one accuse me of being a "trader" A shame, really: in principle a good investment - a dominant company selling essential goods and well run - but in a shockingly competitive sector. Dod, my old friend, you were right all along.


Arb.

[Itsallaguess]

Just one caution - the key is a moderate yield with growth.

I can show you examples of moderate or low yield without growth among my single company shares - a relevant example being Tesco. Almost never high yield, and equally almost never in positive return territory.

Maybe high time to ditch after ten years waiting! Let no one accuse me of being a "trader"

A shame, really: in principle a good investment - a dominant company selling essential goods and well run - but in a shockingly competitive sector. Dod, my old friend, you were right all along.

I've never been convinced that I needed to own a supermarket in my income-portfolio, and to be honest, the only 'good investment' I can see them perhaps being is if they were bought up as an asset-stripping exercise, and not necessarily run as a 'going concern' - too-thin margins, in too-competitive a field, and often being shown how to really do it by the likes of Aldi and Lidl, so it's difficult for me to see any real positives at all in the available supermarket options, and when that's the case, I'm really quite happy to look elsewhere for better candidates.

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[Arborbridge]

Just a further thought about HFEL the "capital eater". I agree - it hasn't been great. But what to do? It is actually quite a tough ask to swap one of my big income generators for one giving around half the same income - which most of the rest of my ITs would do.

In time, Law Debenture (if it continues in the same successful way) could produce more income - but it would be a long wait. I could have passed the end game by that time.

Just as background, my total return (XIRR) for HFEL shows 4.13% since Dec 2013, but the average TR has been 7.5% so it's up and down. The yield at the moment is a silly 9%, but it is normally around 5-6%.

My LWDB investment is showing an XIRR of 10.85% Since 2013, with an average of 11.13% (and less volatility) with a yield nearer 3% or under, than 4%. But, the knowledge that LWDB is far from "normal" and that a considerable part of its return is from a single business, should be enough to urge caution.

Any radical change could lead to a considerable hit on my pension: alterations would therefore need to be gradual, not revolutionary.


Arb.