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Hotel Survival?

place to discuss doing things round and about the UK or to ask advice about other locations
feder1
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Hotel Survival?

#519033

Postby feder1 » August 2nd, 2022, 9:40 am

We recently stayed at a grand old hotel, The Old Swan in Harrogate which has about 130 rooms and must have been magnificent in times past.

However, we couldn,t help wondering how such mausoleums will survive through winter and the future in view of electricity and gas costs spiralling.

Also, the building maintenance and cleaning costs must be phenomenal too.

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Re: Hotel Survival?

#519101

Postby Mike88 » August 2nd, 2022, 11:43 am

Don't worry they will survive. They just put up their prices and, given the number of people holidaying and taking breaks in the UK, they will thrive. Last weekend I spent a few nights in a Travelodge. Basic and generally awful costing £150 a night and the hotel was full as were all the other hotels in the area that offered parking.

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Re: Hotel Survival?

#519106

Postby Dod101 » August 2nd, 2022, 11:55 am

Mike88 wrote:Don't worry they will survive. They just put up their prices and, given the number of people holidaying and taking breaks in the UK, they will thrive. Last weekend I spent a few nights in a Travelodge. Basic and generally awful costing £150 a night and the hotel was full as were all the other hotels in the area that offered parking.


Yes but the OP is not writing about now but when the real big increases in fuel etc come along. These will affect the finances of these hotels and also the ability and willingness of customers to pay.

Dod

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Re: Hotel Survival?

#519110

Postby pje16 » August 2nd, 2022, 12:02 pm

I have been to Harrogate several time the Old Swan is a magnificent building

I drive past an Ibis in Hertfordshire most weeks, it displays its room rate via a red neon sign which is visible from the road
Normally it varies from low £40s to high £50s
A month ago it was £134 - WHAT... for an Ibis
last week sense resumed, it was back to £56
(perhaps that spike was when they had only one or two rooms left)

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Re: Hotel Survival?

#519115

Postby Mike88 » August 2nd, 2022, 12:09 pm

Dod101 wrote:
Mike88 wrote:Don't worry they will survive. They just put up their prices and, given the number of people holidaying and taking breaks in the UK, they will thrive. Last weekend I spent a few nights in a Travelodge. Basic and generally awful costing £150 a night and the hotel was full as were all the other hotels in the area that offered parking.


Yes but the OP is not writing about now but when the real big increases in fuel etc come along. These will affect the finances of these hotels and also the ability and willingness of customers to pay.

Dod


I know that. That is why I said they will put up their prices to compensate. I mentioned "the now" because that is what is happening at present with full hotels and I this trend is likely to continue even when fuel prices rise.

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Re: Hotel Survival?

#519126

Postby Dod101 » August 2nd, 2022, 12:23 pm

pje16 wrote:I have been to Harrogate several time the Old Swan is a magnificent building

I drive past an Ibis in Hertfordshire most weeks, it displays its room rate via a red neon sign which is visible from the road
Normally it varies from low £40s to high £50s
A month ago it was £134 - WHAT... for an Ibis
last week sense resumed, it was back to £56
(perhaps that spike was when they had only one or two rooms left)


Known as dynamic pricing I think. A place I occasionally go to on the Island of Arran is very expensive on Fridays and Saturdays (and sometimes Sundays) but I think about half the price in mid week.

Dod

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Re: Hotel Survival?

#519144

Postby Alaric » August 2nd, 2022, 1:01 pm

Dod101 wrote:These will affect the finances of these hotels and also the ability and willingness of customers to pay.


I suspcet at the moment, hotels with conference facilities are benefiting from the pent up demand for postponed weddings and conferences during lockdown. As you say, there may come a time when such demand dries up.

I know one hotel locally (in the home counties) that cancelled all its bookings in favour of being a Government financed centre for asylum seekers and other aspirants to life in the UK.

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Re: Hotel Survival?

#519230

Postby Rhyd6 » August 2nd, 2022, 5:21 pm

We were discussing how our local was going to survive come the winter. They usually have the heating turned up to maximum, we suspect this is to increase the sale of beer! Landlord was somewhat on the doom and gloom spectrum when we were chatting about the price of oil but as we pointed out he needs to buy a good microwave and a supply of those hottties filled with gel you heat up in a microwave, fit it with a meter and as long as everyone brings a bob or two and wears thermals all will be well.....................We were not joking, if the pub goes there goes the heart of the village.

R6

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Re: Hotel Survival?

#519236

Postby Lootman » August 2nd, 2022, 5:33 pm

Dod101 wrote:
pje16 wrote:I have been to Harrogate several time the Old Swan is a magnificent building

I drive past an Ibis in Hertfordshire most weeks, it displays its room rate via a red neon sign which is visible from the road
Normally it varies from low £40s to high £50s
A month ago it was £134 - WHAT... for an Ibis
last week sense resumed, it was back to £56
(perhaps that spike was when they had only one or two rooms left)

Known as dynamic pricing I think. A place I occasionally go to on the Island of Arran is very expensive on Fridays and Saturdays (and sometimes Sundays) but I think about half the price in mid week.

In many cases a Sunday night will be the cheapest night of the week at a hotel. The weekenders have gone and the business crowd arrive on Mondays. I like to look for bargains on a Sunday night for that reason.

But there are exceptions. For example a Sunday night before a bank holiday Monday won't be cheap at all. And a more remote location will encourage longer stays which again could make a Sunday expensive. Airport hotels are their own thing.

Then there is the effect of local events, as anyone who has tried to book a room in London during the Wimbledon fortnight can attest,

Hotel rates are through the roof this summer. In some cases double what they were a year ago. I assume it is all the pent up demand for travel has been released. I have actually cancelled a couple of short trips because of the astronomic room rates being asked - £400 a night or more in some cases, room only. I just cannot bring myself to pay that.

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Re: Hotel Survival?

#519257

Postby AF62 » August 2nd, 2022, 6:36 pm

Rhyd6 wrote:We were discussing how our local was going to survive come the winter. They usually have the heating turned up to maximum, we suspect this is to increase the sale of beer! Landlord was somewhat on the doom and gloom spectrum when we were chatting about the price of oil but as we pointed out he needs to buy a good microwave and a supply of those hottties filled with gel you heat up in a microwave, fit it with a meter and as long as everyone brings a bob or two and wears thermals all will be well.....................We were not joking, if the pub goes there goes the heart of the village.

R6


If I walk into a pub in the winter and the heating isn’t on, then I am turning around and leaving.

Yes that’s rubbish for the landlord, but I am not going to pay five or ten times what I can buy a beer for at the supermarket, only to sit in my coat in the pub shivering.

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Re: Hotel Survival?

#519333

Postby GoSeigen » August 2nd, 2022, 11:35 pm

Snorvey wrote:There are many hotels in the north of Scotland that are quite shabby to be honest - but still charge top dollar.

One we stayed at had lovely photos on their website but when we got there the inside was ok-ish. The rooms were clean, but very basic. The large outside deck looked glorious in the pics but should have been condemned. Timber that's patched in so many places places and bounces alarmingly when your walking with a couple of drinks isn't good.

And the staff. Jesus wept. All local. Absolutely Bloody awful. And the 2 owners were running around like hot assed flies, so obviously understaffed. Its the pandemic folk say...well ok. But we stayed at one in a similar area before the pandemic and, yes, the staff were better (ie foreign), but the hotel was falling to bits. My mate stayed at another one in a similar area and the bathroom was so small he had to brush his teeth with his ass sticking out of the sliding door.

£200 a night for that?

No wonder folk are buying/renting campervans and doing it themselves. At least you know what your going to get.


We're running a medium-sized hotel, not in the UK, it's tough out there. Owners running around, check. In 2021 my missus was up most mornings by 5am doing breakfasts and back out the door around 10pm. No profits in sight for the past couple of years. Very relieved we haven't made capital investments. Our place is also basic but at £25pppn B&B perhaps you should venture abroad?

GS

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Re: Hotel Survival?

#519347

Postby Dod101 » August 3rd, 2022, 7:04 am

Snorvey wrote:There are many hotels in the north of Scotland that are quite shabby to be honest - but still charge top dollar.

One we stayed at had lovely photos on their website but when we got there the inside was ok-ish. The rooms were clean, but very basic. The large outside deck looked glorious in the pics but should have been condemned. Timber that's patched in so many places places and bounces alarmingly when your walking with a couple of drinks isn't good.

And the staff. Jesus wept. All local. Absolutely Bloody awful. And the 2 owners were running around like hot assed flies, so obviously understaffed. Its the pandemic folk say...well ok. But we stayed at one in a similar area before the pandemic and, yes, the staff were better (ie foreign), but the hotel was falling to bits. My mate stayed at another one in a similar area and the bathroom was so small he had to brush his teeth with his ass sticking out of the sliding door.

£200 a night for that?

No wonder folk are buying/renting campervans and doing it themselves. At least you know what your going to get.


There are also quite a few good ones which are not cheap. All though seem to have the same problem, lack of good reliable staff. The same goes for restaurants, whether in the north of Scotland or elsewhere, but the far north seems to have more than its fair share of quite poor ones.

Dod

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Re: Hotel Survival?

#519410

Postby GoSeigen » August 3rd, 2022, 10:53 am

Snorvey wrote:
GoSeigen wrote:
Snorvey wrote:There are many hotels in the north of Scotland that are quite shabby to be honest - but still charge top dollar.

One we stayed at had lovely photos on their website but when we got there the inside was ok-ish. The rooms were clean, but very basic. The large outside deck looked glorious in the pics but should have been condemned. Timber that's patched in so many places places and bounces alarmingly when your walking with a couple of drinks isn't good.

And the staff. Jesus wept. All local. Absolutely Bloody awful. And the 2 owners were running around like hot assed flies, so obviously understaffed. Its the pandemic folk say...well ok. But we stayed at one in a similar area before the pandemic and, yes, the staff were better (ie foreign), but the hotel was falling to bits. My mate stayed at another one in a similar area and the bathroom was so small he had to brush his teeth with his ass sticking out of the sliding door.

£200 a night for that?

No wonder folk are buying/renting campervans and doing it themselves. At least you know what your going to get.


We're running a medium-sized hotel, not in the UK, it's tough out there. Owners running around, check. In 2021 my missus was up most mornings by 5am doing breakfasts and back out the door around 10pm. No profits in sight for the past couple of years. Very relieved we haven't made capital investments. Our place is also basic but at £25pppn B&B perhaps you should venture abroad?

GS


Maybe I should book a few nights at your place GS.


I'll throw in a full body massage done by me and some free investment tips :D :D :o

GS

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Re: Hotel Survival?

#521293

Postby Rhyd6 » August 10th, 2022, 10:56 am

Our favourite restaurant is up for sale, they just can't get the staff. It's Tyddyn Llan in Llandrillo a small village between Corwen and Bala. It's got a Michelin star and Brian the owner/chef and his wife are brilliant. At the moment they're surviving by only opening for Sunday lunch so we've booked for this coming Sunday and the Sunday after. We were counting up the other day and in the last 5 years we've lost 11 pubs within a five mile radius. Grim times for pubs/restaurants all over the country.

R6

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Re: Hotel Survival?

#521443

Postby AF62 » August 10th, 2022, 7:03 pm

Rhyd6 wrote:We were counting up the other day and in the last 5 years we've lost 11 pubs within a five mile radius.


11 pubs closing in a five mile radius sounds like there were too many to start with. In a five mile radius around me there are 15 pubs but that is across a built up area of 40,000 people.

And that is before you get to the issue of pubs and especially their supplying breweries trying the 'fewer sales = increase prices' trick that just accelerates the decline.

And to be honest I just don't understand the economics of pubs these days.

Go into a supermarket and a 500ml bottle of beer is £1.60 or so. Go into a Wetherspoons and that same pint of beer is £3 - fair enough, they are providing the building, the seating, a glass, staff to serve, etc.

But go into an independent pub and it will be double the price at £6 or so - and they wonder why nobody is buying.

Now of course the independent pub is selling for £6 (or rather not selling for £6) because of the price the brewery sold them the beer, but does nobody realise that just keeping increasing the prices pushes customers away and into drinking at home, going to the cheaper pubs, or not drinking at all.

And that's before you get to the food pubs sell and which used to pull in customers, but now doesn't because of the absurd prices they charge. Every pub these days seems to think it sensible to charge £6, £7, £8 or more for a simple sandwich - get real, nobody is buying. And if nobody is buying your overpriced sandwiches then they are not buying a beer or two to go with it.

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Re: Hotel Survival?

#522460

Postby didds » August 14th, 2022, 10:09 pm

AF62 wrote:[
Go into a supermarket and a 500ml bottle of beer is £1.60 or so. Go into a Wetherspoons and that same pint of beer is £3 - fair enough, they are providing the building, the seating, a glass, staff to serve, etc..


WADR this is more nuanced that merely cost and the availability of staff. Maybe the independent pubs (which are likely to be far from independent when tied/Pub Cos of course) offer some other service (chat with the bar staff, whatever else) that s/m provision or spoons doesn't offer.

There are four pubs in our town in the CAMRA GBG, and a 5th very very popular craft bar not selling real ale. Not one of those is spoons (which is also in the town). Somebody somewhere is prepared to pay for good beer, kept well, served well, with attendant and additional ambience/provision.

And of course its very unlikely that a tied/PubCo pub can buy the beer in any where near the prices spoons can, and even truly independent pubs (ie freehouses) will get it cheaper than tied pubs, but not as cheap as spoons.

Spoons major benefit (IMO) is that is never pretends to be anything it isnt.

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Re: Hotel Survival?

#522461

Postby Lootman » August 14th, 2022, 10:25 pm

didds wrote: its very unlikely that a tied/PubCo pub can buy the beer in any where near the prices spoons can, and even truly independent pubs (ie freehouses) will get it cheaper than tied pubs, but not as cheap as spoons.

Spoons major benefit (IMO) is that is never pretends to be anything it isnt.

The way it was explained to me by someone who worked at a 'spoons was that they buy beer from breweries that is close to its expiry date. A low volume pub cannot afford that risk as they will probably have to throw away some or even most of it. But 'spoons are so busy and cheap that they feel confident they will sell every pint and so have no waste.

That said a good part of the reason why craft beer is now more regarded than real ale is precisely that it keeps better. Perhaps the perfect compromise between "fragile" real ale and the weak gassy low-maintenance keg beer of yore?

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Re: Hotel Survival?

#522466

Postby AF62 » August 14th, 2022, 10:40 pm

didds wrote:And of course its very unlikely that a tied/PubCo pub can buy the beer in any where near the prices spoons can, and even truly independent pubs (ie freehouses) will get it cheaper than tied pubs, but not as cheap as spoons.


As the cost of the beer coming out of the brewery is the same wherever it is destined, then the destruction of tied/PubCo pubs is down to brewery the tied/PubCo pubs are tied to.

If those breweries want to be stupid and sell to Wetherspoons and supermarkets cheaper than their own pubs, well…

Lootman wrote:The way it was explained to me by someone who worked at a 'spoons was that they buy beer from breweries that is close to its expiry date.


A tale often told, but has no substance as even if you tried to do it there is no way there is sufficient beer close to expiry to keep 872 pubs running, let alone 872 pubs that consume what Wetherspoons do.

However the volume that 872 Wetherspoons pubs is ordering is going to get any suppliers attention.

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Re: Hotel Survival?

#522469

Postby Lootman » August 14th, 2022, 10:45 pm

AF62 wrote: even if you tried to do it there is no way there is sufficient beer close to expiry to keep 872 pubs running, let alone 872 pubs that consume what Wetherspoons do.

However the volume that 872 Wetherspoons pubs is ordering is going to get any suppliers attention.

No, a lot of the beer ordered by 'spoons is local in origin. At least the hand-pumped real ales. So it is entirely possible that a major chain might order just a few barrels from a local brewery for local distribution. The pub managers have a certain amount of discretion. So for example a 'spoons in Devon will feature Otter Ale and Doom Bar, whilst you will see neither in a 'spoons in Newcastle,

Given that my source was in charge of ordering beer for 'spoons it seems unlikely that I am going to believe you over him. Sorry.

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Re: Hotel Survival?

#522470

Postby AF62 » August 14th, 2022, 10:56 pm

Lootman wrote:Given that my source was in charge of ordering beer for 'spoons


Either they weren’t who they said they were or they were pulling your leg.

https://www.mylondon.news/lifestyle/foo ... d-20932546

A spokesperson for the pub franchise said:

“The urban myth that Wetherspoon buys out-of-date or short-dated beer, or any other products, is ludicrous.

"Wetherspoon has been trading with most of its beer, wine and spirit suppliers, like Greene King, Marston's, AB InBev, Diageo and Heineken, or their predecessors, and other smaller brewers since opening its first pub in 1979.

"The idea that any of these companies would risk their reputation by permitting Wetherspoon, or any other customer, to sell short-dated beer is preposterous."


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