Generational ignorance

[bungeejumper]

Not so bad on the really large roundabouts, but at the small ones in towns, where they drive their bloody Fiat 500s like Ferraris, then not many people suffer from constipation!

I once had one of the old-style Fiat 500s - 18 bhp, compulsory canvas sunroof, and a heater that blew oily hot air across the cylinder head into the cabin. Now and then, you see a TV documentary presenter chancing his luck in Rome in such a beast. And I'll bet that even those cars have been retrofitted with synchromesh, which the original didn't have!

Didn't need roundabouts, though. The turning circle was so tiny that we could do a U-turn pretty well anywhere we wanted to. Happy days.

Which reminds me. When we eventually traded it in, we got a desperate phone call from the dealer asking us how you started the thing, because he needed to move it off his forecourt? Answer: there were two tiny metal toggles at the base of the gearstick. One worked the choke, the other engaged the starter motor. Intuitive, no? Ah, it was ever thus.

BJ

[servodude]

Not so bad on the really large roundabouts, but at the small ones in towns, where they drive their bloody Fiat 500s like Ferraris, then not many people suffer from constipation!

I once had one of the old-style Fiat 500s - 18 bhp, compulsory canvas sunroof, and a heater that blew oily hot air across the cylinder head into the cabin. Now and then, you see a TV documentary presenter chancing his luck in Rome in such a beast. And I'll bet that even those cars have been retrofitted with synchromesh, which the original didn't have!

Didn't need roundabouts, though. The turning circle was so tiny that we could do a U-turn pretty well anywhere we wanted to. Happy days.

Which reminds me. When we eventually traded it in, we got a desperate phone call from the dealer asking us how you started the thing, because he needed to move it off his forecourt? Answer: there were two tiny metal toggles at the base of the gearstick. One worked the choke, the other engaged the starter motor. Intuitive, no? Ah, it was ever thus.

BJ

Did the windscreen fold forward?

I reckon that chokes would baffle most youngsters (most can't seem to start a lawn mower)

And I'm pretty sure that stealing a proper Saab would have been beyond the ken of most neds even if they had the key
(Took me longer than I'd normally have expected to work out where to stick the necessary tool)

[DrFfybes]

I've just collected a hire van for the day.

It is a Maxus, which Google tells me is by SAIC.

There are some buttons on the fascia panel, these allowed simple operation of the heater so I could see where I was going, almost. The wipers weren't going, so I flicked the lever, on they came along with a 'BONG' and a message warning me that I'd disabled the auto wipers. Considering the rain I can only summise "auto" means they come on when it stops.

You unlock with a standard (these days) remote fob with buttons, which you then have to find somewhere secure to stow as you press a button to start/stop. I would suggest NOT using the passenger shelf as it will shoot off into the passenger door recess at the first roundabout. An ashtray would be useful at this point.

It has a lot of features, or rather I assume it does, as there are lots of buttons with lights under them and pressing them elicits a dashboard message saying "AFM disabled" or some other unexplained acronym. Perhaps it has an Auto Frunge Modulator. The handbrake is reassuringly manual, as is the gearbox. The reversing camera is great, nice big clear view and 'guide lines' that show the trajectory of the vehicle as you turn the wheel.

I asked how to turn the radio off - apparently it can be muted by a teering wheel button but other than that the hire chap didn't know. I mentioned this thread and vehicle complexity.

He is also a driving instructor, says he struggles to find a basic manual car to teach pupils. Apparently co-ordinating handbrake and clutch is proving a real probelm for many learners, especially those who practise in their parents' modern cars.

Paul

[stevensfo]

I once had one of the old-style Fiat 500s - 18 bhp, compulsory canvas sunroof, and a heater that blew oily hot air across the cylinder head into the cabin. Now and then, you see a TV documentary presenter chancing his luck in Rome in such a beast. And I'll bet that even those cars have been retrofitted with synchromesh, which the original didn't have!

Didn't need roundabouts, though. The turning circle was so tiny that we could do a U-turn pretty well anywhere we wanted to. Happy days.

Which reminds me. When we eventually traded it in, we got a desperate phone call from the dealer asking us how you started the thing, because he needed to move it off his forecourt? Answer: there were two tiny metal toggles at the base of the gearstick. One worked the choke, the other engaged the starter motor. Intuitive, no? Ah, it was ever thus.

BJ

Did the windscreen fold forward?

I reckon that chokes would baffle most youngsters (most can't seem to start a lawn mower)

And I'm pretty sure that stealing a proper Saab would have been beyond the ken of most neds even if they had the key
(Took me longer than I'd normally have expected to work out where to stick the necessary tool)

After our Escort and then Micra were written off while living in Stevenage, a friend of my wife sold us her old Saab 900. I hated it at first. Built like a tank, two heavy doors and not very economical. Over the next year or so, I came to love it! The engine was so widely spaced that tinkering with it was dead easy and I did most of the maintenance myself. No idea of the width of the metal used, but after nudging our Escort's doors open with my knee, I soon learned that the Saab's doors were bloody dangerous! I have never felt so safe in a car.

Steve

PS The trick with a lawn mower is to buy one with a Honda engine. Our lawnmower was still starting long after the lawnmower chassis had fallen to pieces!

[servodude]

Did the windscreen fold forward?

I reckon that chokes would baffle most youngsters (most can't seem to start a lawn mower)

And I'm pretty sure that stealing a proper Saab would have been beyond the ken of most neds even if they had the key
(Took me longer than I'd normally have expected to work out where to stick the necessary tool)

After our Escort and then Micra were written off while living in Stevenage, a friend of my wife sold us her old Saab 900. I hated it at first. Built like a tank, two heavy doors and not very economical. Over the next year or so, I came to love it! The engine was so widely spaced that tinkering with it was dead easy and I did most of the maintenance myself. No idea of the width of the metal used, but after nudging our Escort's doors open with my knee, I soon learned that the Saab's doors were bloody dangerous! I have never felt so safe in a car.

Steve

PS The trick with a lawn mower is to buy one with a Honda engine. Our lawnmower was still starting long after the lawnmower chassis had fallen to pieces!

The 900 Turbo was like "the future" when I was a kid; so was my dad's Alfasud to be fair... but the Saab just seemed like an exercise in thinking about stuff and solving it properly (not just doing what everyone else did)

Ps. Lawnmowers should ship with startyabastard if suitable ( https://www.nulon.com.au/products/aerosols/start-ya-bastard-instant-engine-starter)

[servodude]

An ashtray would be useful at this point.

This raises an interesting thought..
I'm guessing they will still be called "ashtrays" in cars long after that is what they are used for?

Like the "glove box"?
Or I suppose also the dashboard?

[kiloran]

PS The trick with a lawn mower is to buy one with a Honda engine. Our lawnmower was still starting long after the lawnmower chassis had fallen to pieces!

My Briggs and Stratton was still going strong after 30 trouble-free and easy-starting years, until it had a fuel-pipe leak and I decided to treat myself to a new mower

--kiloran

[tjh290633]

This saga reminds me of a time in the late. 60s or early 70s when I had occasion to rent a car to travel from Cincinnati to Toledo. Hertz provided a Mercury of some sort. Montclair from memory. When the ignition was turned ned on, the wipers began working like mad. The know was rotatable to vary the speed but, when turned left to the stop, the wipers still worked full pelt.

A passer by provided the answer. It had a central off. One way you got variable intermittent operation at full speed, the other you got variable speed. Not intuitive.

TJH

[Howard]

We have a BEV and an ICE model, so it’s easy for me to compare the two cars. The KIA BEV spec is surprisingly upmarket with a super infotainment system.

Hope the following is helpful to those who are considering an electric car.

Our electric KIA has a head up display which shows speed, speed limit and, if the satnav is set, the distance to the next turn ahead with L/R icon.

Underneath is a speedometer and an indicator encouraging the driver to use the brake gently to get optimum regenerative braking. It has five other small symbols. When we got the car, Mrs H asked how to drive it and I said “See that selector button it’s D for forward R for reverse and P for park. Everything else is like your old Golf with buttons for heater etc.” She got in and drove the car and didn’t look back (thanks to the reversing camera ).

My brand new petrol engine car has two screens, both customisable. It’s taken me a while to set them to my liking. I’ve ignored showing such things as weather and music information to keep things as basic as possible.

A journey to somewhere I haven’t been before starts simply. I just say, for example, “take me to the Jolly Farmer in Exeter” and it sets the destination and brings up the map.

Then without any need to press buttons or change anything all that is shown continuously on the screens for the rest of the journey is the following information and option buttons:

Speedometer
Rev Counter
Gear selected
Drive selected (econ, comfort or sport)
Coasting/not coasting
Petrol gauge
Range
Distance to destination
Expected arrival time
Current speed limit
Map with symbols for features like petrol stations etc
Distance to next turn
Map orientation
Time elapsed since start of journey
Average speed
Altitude
Scale
Road name
Road number
Traffic
Google
Search
Settings
Fuel consumption
External temperature
Home
Radio
Telephone
Music
Track playing
Sub-menu
Bluetooth
Assist
Phone signal strength
User touch button to change to Mrs H’s settings

What could be simpler?

However the car enjoys adding a little complexity if I take a short cut or if there is traffic ahead. It flashes up a warning to tell me that there is a choice of routes ahead and forces me to make a decision on which route I prefer. It also helps by changing the screen automatically before exits to indicate which lane I should be in.

If it is dark it simplifies things further by adding a lights symbol to the display showing normal/main beam. If exterior visibility is bad it can improve the display even more by adding two more light symbols showing rear/front foglights and, yes, I do not lie, the occasional bright flashing message - warning - low visibility plus if it’s cold outside - warning - icy conditions.

I probably haven’t included all the visual indicators because it would require driving the car at speed to check if I have missed a few.

Of course, as an enthusiastic driver, one can add complexity by switching on cruise control and features like lane keeping when a whole new layer of symbols are added. Pressing the onboard computer button brings up layers of options - be careful because like a maze it's difficult to get back to the simple display.

I wouldn’t suggest adding Android Auto or Apple Car Play, I tried that and it added yet a whole new layer of options!

Ironically the only time the car display fails completely is if one selects reverse. Damn it, every helpful symbol disappears - all seventy of them! The screen just shows a single image of what’s behind the car nothing else! To be honest it is enhanced by those curvy lines predicting where one isn’t going to end up.

I hope this is helpful to anyone considering a new car and who is unfamiliar with BEVs, I wouldn’t worry too much about their complexity - unless you go for a high spec super model with all the frills and super helpful displays.

regards

Howard

(After typing this I have a fatigue warning flashing - must go and lie down.)

[9873210]

An ashtray would be useful at this point.

This raises an interesting thought..
I'm guessing they will still be called "ashtrays" in cars long after that is what they are used for?

They will be called "cup holders".

[88V8]

We have a BEV and an ICE model, so it’s easy for me to compare the two cars. The KIA BEV spec is surprisingly upmarket with a super infotainment system.....
My brand new petrol engine car has two screens, both customisable....

I wonder how long manufacturers will continue to support the software behind all this complexification of a device that merely needs to go, steer, and stop...
Will it become like 'smart' TVs, and phones, that are deliberately obsolesced....

V8

[Howard]

We have a BEV and an ICE model, so it’s easy for me to compare the two cars. The KIA BEV spec is surprisingly upmarket with a super infotainment system.....
My brand new petrol engine car has two screens, both customisable....

I wonder how long manufacturers will continue to support the software behind all this complexification of a device that merely needs to go, steer, and stop...
Will it become like 'smart' TVs, and phones, that are deliberately obsolesced....

V8

You may have a point. The BEV's simplicity may help it last many years.

The petrol car just a month old, with its wonderful electronic complexity, is scheduled to be out of production soon due to government regulations.
But it is lovely to drive once you've set it up .

regards

Howard

[gryffron]

Come on, this isn't a new problem.

Many years ago I owned a Nissan Bluebird. I pulled up in a petrol station, and a very flustered lady came over to ask if I could help her. She couldn't find the petrol cap release in her Nissan. Like mine, it was between the drivers door and the seat - obviously!

Gryff

[Dicky99]

I wonder how long manufacturers will continue to support the software behind all this complexification of a device that merely needs to go, steer, and stop...
Will it become like 'smart' TVs, and phones, that are deliberately obsolesced....

V8

I'd quite happily use a golf cart for local use if it were road legal. In fact I recall visiting a little island off HK in the early 1990s where cars were not permitted and so golf carts were their only option.

[9873210]

We have a BEV and an ICE model, so it’s easy for me to compare the two cars. The KIA BEV spec is surprisingly upmarket with a super infotainment system.....
My brand new petrol engine car has two screens, both customisable....

I wonder how long manufacturers will continue to support the software behind all this complexification of a device that merely needs to go, steer, and stop...
Will it become like 'smart' TVs, and phones, that are deliberately obsolesced....

V8

Software is not monolithic. The embedded software that makes the car go, stop and steer should not need to be replace. I've seen equipment from the 1990s still chugging along with the original software I wrote almost 30 years ago. Unless the laws of physics change it will continue to work until the hardware fails. The software even went through Y2K unscathed, though I can't count the number of times I had to write "The system does not use the date."

The stuff which does need to be updated is likely to be common between ICE and BEV models. Things like maps and traffic regulations. This really should be shared between huge numbers of vehicles of multiple models so it will be maintained for a long time unless the legal system prevents that, but the legal system is always a risk and not really software related. I mean you never know laws might stop diesels from working in the city centre.

There are probably car manufactures who will do this wrong, but there have always been bad cars that only last a few years.

[quelquod]

PS The trick with a lawn mower is to buy one with a Honda engine. Our lawnmower was still starting long after the lawnmower chassis had fallen to pieces!

My previous lawnmower was a Honda at roughly £1k delivered. After 3 years of an hours running per week 8 months of the year and serviced annually an inlet valve dropped and ruined the engine. I’ve bought a Hayter with a B&S engine instead - starts 2nd pull cold or hot.

[88V8]

PS The trick with a lawn mower is to buy one with a Honda engine. Our lawnmower was still starting long after the lawnmower chassis had fallen to pieces!

My previous lawnmower was a Honda at roughly £1k delivered. After 3 years of an hours running per week 8 months of the year and serviced annually an inlet valve dropped and ruined the engine. I’ve bought a Hayter with a B&S engine instead - starts 2nd pull cold or hot.

I just put a good s/h chassis under my 1984 Mountfield. The alloy deck had corroded and the steel undertray, and the repair of years ago involving the lid of an egg poacher had corroded in its turn.
I also replaced the cracked rear rollers.
Nice simple rotary push mower with variable engine speed that nowadays costs extra, and no irritating dead man's handle.
The B&S engine will probably outlast me.
Simple is best.

V8

[Urbandreamer]

Nice simple rotary push mower with variable engine speed that nowadays costs extra, and no irritating dead man's handle.
The B&S engine will probably outlast me.
Simple is best.

V8

Ha. I confess that I've always used electric mowers. Simple is best.
No need to faff with mixing oil and petrol etc.
No need to worry about carbon on the plugs.

Ah, but the downside, no not the length of cable. No it's that it's electric rather than an internal combustion engine!

[scrumpyjack]

Ha. I confess that I've always used electric mowers. Simple is best.
No need to faff with mixing oil and petrol etc.
No need to worry about carbon on the plugs.

Ah, but the downside, no not the length of cable. No it's that it's electric rather than an internal combustion engine!

Yes but I've got over 6 acres to mow and an electric mower really wouldn't cut it (literally)

[bungeejumper]

My previous lawnmower was a Honda at roughly £1k delivered. After 3 years of an hours running per week 8 months of the year and serviced annually an inlet valve dropped and ruined the engine.

Ouch. When we bought Bungee Towers, as a total restoration project with King Kong's jungle for a garden, we thought about buying a Honda, and then we saw the price tag, and then we bought a self-propelled Briggs and Stratton thing instead. Too many wild rocks and tree roots in our jungle - and I'd also be mowing the churchyard where there'd all manner of solid objects to collide with.

Thirty years later, we're on our third B&S mower, this time a big-wheeled 140cc Webb, and we still haven't spent as much as the Honda would have cost us three decades ago.

I’ve bought a Hayter with a B&S engine instead - starts 2nd pull cold or hot.

Yep. Just keep the petrol clean and the carb will look after itself. Everything else is old tech and long-stroke. Runs on any old oil, such as my father's stash of 1960s Duckhams 20/50. The annual service consists of propping up the deck for five minutes and sharpening the blades with an angle grinder. Who needs poncy overhead cams on a mower anyway?

BJ