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IHT changes on the way?

including Budgets
Moosehoosenew
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Re: IHT changes on the way?

#628620

Postby Moosehoosenew » November 19th, 2023, 5:08 pm

IHT rates from wikipedia

Country Top Rate
Belgium 80%[3]
Japan 55%[4]
South Korea 50%[5]
Germany 50%[6]
France 45%
United Kingdom 40%
United States 40%[7]
Netherlands 40%[8]
Ecuador 35%[9]
Spain 34%
Ireland 33%
Chile 25%
South Africa 25%[10]
Greece 20%
Taiwan 20%[11]
Finland 19%
Ukraine 18%
Denmark 15%
Iceland 10%
Turkey 10%
Vietnam 10%[12]
Brazil 8%[13]
Poland 7%
Switzerland 7%
Philippines 6%[14]
Croatia 5%
Italy 4%
Australia 0%
Austria 0%
Canada 0%
China 0%[15]
Estonia 0%
Hungary 0%
India 0%
Israel 0%
Luxembourg 0%
Mexico 0%
New Zealand 0%
Norway 0%[17]
Pakistan 0%
Portugal 0%
Russia 0%[16]
Serbia 0%
Singapore 0%[17]
Slovak Republic 0%
Slovenia 0%
Sweden 0%

Sorry about formatting.

There is a whole industry built around IHT planning in the UK, not really creating anything and often wrong as rules change.
I think it is possible if the rate comes down substantially the take may not change as much less incentive to avoid it.

Nimrod103
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Re: IHT changes on the way?

#628624

Postby Nimrod103 » November 19th, 2023, 5:23 pm

Lootman wrote:
tjh290633 wrote:One of the main considerations is the ability to pay care home charges, should the need arise. If that need does not have to be met, then you are likely to be liable for IHT.

If you are of a charitable disposition, you can avoid IHT that way, by making charitable bequests framed appropriately.

At least with charitable bequests you control where the money goes, rather than have a politician decide who gets your involuntary support.

If my aim is not to die broke, then it is certainly at least to die without the government getting any more than the large amount it has already had out of me.


I will never understand why charities should benefit this way from receiving their bequest free of IHT. Dogs and cats homes are NOT deserving causes.
Certainly not compared with my own children who are facing a hard and difficult enough life as it is. I help them a lot already, but they could really do with the money when I die more than any UK charity I can think of.

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Re: IHT changes on the way?

#628626

Postby MrFoolish » November 19th, 2023, 5:31 pm

Nimrod103 wrote:I will never understand why charities should benefit this way from receiving their bequest free of IHT. Dogs and cats homes are NOT deserving causes.
Certainly not compared with my own children who are facing a hard and difficult enough life as it is. I help them a lot already, but they could really do with the money when I die more than any UK charity I can think of.


A better starting point to help them would be increasing the tax free income tax allowances. Then they can take the pride of earning their own money and keeping a bit more of it. It's better than them waiting for you to die.

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Re: IHT changes on the way?

#628651

Postby Nimrod103 » November 19th, 2023, 7:44 pm

MrFoolish wrote:
Nimrod103 wrote:I will never understand why charities should benefit this way from receiving their bequest free of IHT. Dogs and cats homes are NOT deserving causes.
Certainly not compared with my own children who are facing a hard and difficult enough life as it is. I help them a lot already, but they could really do with the money when I die more than any UK charity I can think of.


A better starting point to help them would be increasing the tax free income tax allowances. Then they can take the pride of earning their own money and keeping a bit more of it. It's better than them waiting for you to die.


Increased tax free thresholds takes more people out of paying tax (hence they have less inclination to keep spending down when they vote), and narrows the tax base to an even smaller number of high earners (which is vulnerable to those people cutting back on working hard or moving abroad). The tax base should be as broad as possible. The message from the think tanks at present is that IHT is one of the few tax reductions at present which would not be inflationary.

The high rate and low threshold for IHT sends a clear message to people who want to work hard and build something for their families - the message is 'don't bother'.

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Re: IHT changes on the way?

#628658

Postby Dod101 » November 19th, 2023, 8:00 pm

I am totally indifferent to IHT rates. I have over my lifetime had maybe £50,000 max from inheritance and my children definitely do not need anything from me.

I am leaving significant sums to my grandchildren and to medical charities and am able to reduce the IHT rate on my chargeable estate to 36%. There are other more important taxes to reduce than IHT at this time.

Dod

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Re: IHT changes on the way?

#628667

Postby MrFoolish » November 19th, 2023, 8:44 pm

Nimrod103 wrote:Increased tax free thresholds takes more people out of paying tax (hence they have less inclination to keep spending down when they vote), and narrows the tax base to an even smaller number of high earners (which is vulnerable to those people cutting back on working hard or moving abroad). The tax base should be as broad as possible. The message from the think tanks at present is that IHT is one of the few tax reductions at present which would not be inflationary.

The high rate and low threshold for IHT sends a clear message to people who want to work hard and build something for their families - the message is 'don't bother'.


Everyone pays tax because VAT is unavoidable.

And it's funny you seem to think wealthy people need incentives to work hard but not poor people.

Seeing as you've brought your children into this discussion, what sort of income band are they in?

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Re: IHT changes on the way?

#628669

Postby Nimrod103 » November 19th, 2023, 8:58 pm

MrFoolish wrote:Everyone pays tax because VAT is unavoidable.


But nobody is really aware of paying VAT. So they don't think about it, indeed it probably gets forgotten. It would be good if we had a system like the USA, where I seem to recall that prices are always quoted before state purchase taxes are applied at the till.

MrFoolish wrote:And it's funny you seem to think wealthy people need incentives to work hard but not poor people.

Seems very obvious to me that this would generally be the case. If you have enough to live on, the incentive to work harder or longer hours needs to be that much greater.

MrFoolish wrote:Seeing as you've brought your children into this discussion, what sort of income band are they in?


Not high. And one is just going through a divorce which is having a very serious financial impact on her and my grandchildren. And the third has just been made redundant.

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Re: IHT changes on the way?

#628675

Postby MrFoolish » November 19th, 2023, 9:13 pm

Nimrod103 wrote:Not high. And one is just going through a divorce which is having a very serious financial impact on her and my grandchildren. And the third has just been made redundant.


I'm sorry that they are going through a tough time. But I'd suggest that a change in inheritance tax is going to make no difference to their short or medium term difficulties (unless you are at death's door). Ask them what they'd like to see from the government.

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Re: IHT changes on the way?

#628680

Postby Lootman » November 19th, 2023, 9:22 pm

MrFoolish wrote:
Nimrod103 wrote:Not high. And one is just going through a divorce which is having a very serious financial impact on her and my grandchildren. And the third has just been made redundant.

I'm sorry that they are going through a tough time. But I'd suggest that a change in inheritance tax is going to make no difference to their short or medium term difficulties (unless you are at death's door). Ask them what they'd like to see from the government.

I do not think you understand how angry people are about being taxed on dying. Or else you do not care.

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Re: IHT changes on the way?

#628682

Postby fromdusktilldawn » November 19th, 2023, 9:25 pm

CliffEdge wrote:
Mike4 wrote:
I'm inclined to agree. There are loads of lefties who are nice, middle-of-the-road, middle class people who just haven't thought about it properly. They just vote left as a knee-jerk emotional decision.

Oh and it is just soooooo trendy to be a leftie and to say so loud and often. And so deeply unfashionable to mention voting Tory.

I count them as floating voters. Usually float to the right as they age.

I find myself floating to the left as I age.

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Re: IHT changes on the way?

#628683

Postby MrFoolish » November 19th, 2023, 9:28 pm

Lootman wrote:I do not think you understand how angry people are about being taxed on dying. Or else you do not care.


The tax has to come from somewhere. Hunt seems to think the priority for his tax increases should be middle and lower paid workers, and businesses. Do you agree with him?

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Re: IHT changes on the way?

#628684

Postby MrFoolish » November 19th, 2023, 9:37 pm

BTW, a few years back, the Tories tried to sneak through a massive increase in probate fees (but I think it got blocked in the courts or something). This would have been a disproportionate hit on smaller estates. It's pretty clear where their priorities lie.

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Re: IHT changes on the way?

#628685

Postby Nimrod103 » November 19th, 2023, 9:41 pm

MrFoolish wrote:
Lootman wrote:I do not think you understand how angry people are about being taxed on dying. Or else you do not care.


The tax has to come from somewhere. Hunt seems to think the priority for his tax increases should be middle and lower paid workers, and businesses. Do you agree with him?


It may "have to come from somewhere" but its impact would be lower if unnecessary spending is cut. And in my view British Governments and the civil service have shown little interest in spending frugally and investing wisely. I have nothing but contempt for them.

I can and do support my family but I am getting on, and death can strike any time. It is a fact of life.If I die early the Government will take more from my family than if I carry on for longer. It is a lottery, and tax should not work like that. It makes me bitter that the Govt takes so much from my savings which were all gained from my work.

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Re: IHT changes on the way?

#628686

Postby Lootman » November 19th, 2023, 9:43 pm

ea
MrFoolish wrote:
Lootman wrote:I do not think you understand how angry people are about being taxed on dying. Or else you do not care.

The tax has to come from somewhere. Hunt seems to think the priority for his tax increases should be middle and lower paid workers, and businesses. Do you agree with him?

Are you suggesting that nobody under the average income or wealth levels should ever have to pay more tax?

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Re: IHT changes on the way?

#628689

Postby Nimrod103 » November 19th, 2023, 9:51 pm

MrFoolish wrote:BTW, a few years back, the Tories tried to sneak through a massive increase in probate fees (but I think it got blocked in the courts or something). This would have been a disproportionate hit on smaller estates. It's pretty clear where their priorities lie.


I can't remember the details but the Probate Office needs money from fees to cover its costs. When my brother had to sort out my father's meagre estate 10 years ago, he got a real run-around from the Probate Office, which leads me to think they are not really fit for purpose. The costs of paperwork involved in buying and selling shares, houses, stamp duty, and Probate strike me as excessively high in this age of computerisation. In which case the costs of keeping the IHT threshold constant will draw many estates into HMRC's sights. I have read that HMRC is already very concerned that they will not be able to cope with the vastly increasing number of tax returns they have to look into. I forsee the whole system seizing up in paperwork.

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Re: IHT changes on the way?

#628690

Postby MrFoolish » November 19th, 2023, 9:51 pm

Lootman wrote:
MrFoolish wrote:The tax has to come from somewhere. Hunt seems to think the priority for his tax increases should be middle and lower paid workers, and businesses. Do you agree with him?

Are you suggesting that nobody under the average income or wealth levels should ever have to pay more tax?


In the middle of a cost of living crisis, you have to look after those with more marginal finances. During boom times I'd be more open to your way of thinking, but now is not the time.

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Re: IHT changes on the way?

#628692

Postby Lootman » November 19th, 2023, 9:55 pm

MrFoolish wrote:
Lootman wrote:Are you suggesting that nobody under the average income or wealth levels should ever have to pay more tax?

In the middle of a cost of living crisis, you have to look after those with more marginal finances. During boom times I'd be more open to your way of thinking, but now is not the time.

I suspect that you never think that the time is right for tax breaks for risk takers and wealth creators.

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Re: IHT changes on the way?

#628694

Postby MrFoolish » November 19th, 2023, 10:02 pm

Lootman wrote:
MrFoolish wrote:In the middle of a cost of living crisis, you have to look after those with more marginal finances. During boom times I'd be more open to your way of thinking, but now is not the time.

I suspect that you never think that the time is right for tax breaks for risk takers and wealth creators.


Well you suspect wrongly.

I notice you have nothing to say about the increased taxes on British businesses. But then you invest in US shares, don't you?

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Re: IHT changes on the way?

#628695

Postby Lootman » November 19th, 2023, 10:10 pm

MrFoolish wrote:
Lootman wrote:I suspect that you never think that the time is right for tax breaks for risk takers and wealth creators.

Well you suspect wrongly.

I notice you have nothing to say about the increased taxes on British businesses. But then you invest in US shares, don't you?

OK then tell us the last time (month and year) that you advocated for lower taxes on higher earners? This should be good.

And investing in foreign securities make sense when UK tax policy punishes UK enterprises.

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Re: IHT changes on the way?

#628696

Postby MrFoolish » November 19th, 2023, 10:17 pm

Lootman wrote:OK then tell us the last time (month and year) that you advocated for lower taxes on higher earners? This should be good.


Get real Lootman. We've had 13 years of a Tory government that has favoured higher earners. Perhaps I've got a dusty old diary up in my loft I can dig out for you...


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