Questions for atheists

[jackdaww]

it is remarkable that so few believers have posted to this topic.

I am a believer. What is your point?

RR

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the point is just that , nothing sinister , its fair to say few believers have posted , i hope more will post .

the label "secular" is being used - is that appropriate? must there be labels?

i repeat my take on this - i ask "whats it all about" - my answer "i dont know" .

i do rule out the likelyhood of any beliefs i have come across being true as less likely than winning the lottery every week for ever.

.

[beeswax]

How odd!

I was unable to register for a while and didn't get the email link required and just by chance decided to try without it just now and hey presto! By magic or divine revelation, here I am... I have reverted back to my old user name on TMF which my good friend Hamzah will know from way back and his link on the other thread did refer to a reply to me on his faith question.

I hope Rowdy Reptile doesn't keep doing as he did on TMF by using 'secularism' and the US Government every time religion is discussed though. Also I hope he can keep the discussion civilised otherwise this board will surely be closed or he banned. But we can all live and learn.

I could well be an atheist because I was a former Christian for well over 50 years and didn't really think about it which I suspect the majority of believers of ALL faiths don't because its way of life and part of one's culture to go with the crowd week on week without thinking what it is what we think we believe and so I decided to go and read what the rules of engagement of my faith was, how it started, when the text was written and by whom and more importantly exactly what was being said. And in each paragraph I asked kept asking WHY? It then became so obvious it was made up by men with clear vested interests to CONTROL others, yes and sorry to say this....Weak minds as I must have been not to question this much earlier. Its also clear that most religious people say they believe in their holy text and say its the word of God but then thank God , Don't live their daily lives by it as they pretend they do..

By this I mean, hardly any Jew or Rabbi would live by the Mosaic Laws of the OT anymore. Like stoning to death people working on the Sabbath or unmarried couples having sex or children swearing to their parents and putting gays to death. Very few even believe God created Adam and Eve in his image or as we are today and we evolved from pond life so to speak. Unfortunately most Churches and most leaders of these faiths keep deceiving us all by using these holy texts whilst being unbelievers themselves. Even the Archbishop of Canterbury has questioned whether God actually exists or acts in this world. Christians claim the bible is God's word and commands too and yet they too would not live by it literally and so its just pure hypocritical for them to say that.

So for me I didn't choose atheists but deism as an alternative and maybe that is just because I was so long a believer and won't give that up but for me I still think the universe and the human race was created by a sentient being and nothing comes from nothing and I can't answer who created who created the 'Creator' but that is where I stand on this question.

[beeswax]

Just to add that I wasn't brought up as a church going Christian but like most people in the UK would put CoE on a census form. But I did start going to a non conformist church when I was around 12 to the Salvation Army with my mate who's parents were members and then I left and then started to go again with my girlfriend and her parents to the Railway Mission and that was for quite a few years and then didn't then go. My wife was just the opposite as both her parents were active Christians and went to Church and she went to Sunday School for many years.

She is still very much a believer and why its clear that childhood indoctrination is why the mainstream religions do that. To me that is an abuse of human rights and dignity when kids should not be brainwashed into the faith of their parents or Jewish and Muslim infants circumcised purely based on religious dogma and culture.

[ReformedCharacter]

we humanoids have difficulty conceptualising the idea that either the universe has always been here for ever or emerged from nothing/zero.

But those aren't the only possibilities. I cannot discard the possibility that our domain may be the product of an intelligent designer. It must be said, though, that any reading into the subject soon uncovers proponents of ID using the idea to promote or dismiss various religious ideas. Recently the idea that our domain may be the product of simulation has gained momentum:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulatio ... physically

Given that an 'intelligent designer' is another name (at least to me) for God, and that the idea seems sufficiently plausible yet incapable of proof or disproof (although some scientists are trying, see link above) then I consider myself an Agnostic. I find it strange that many people who profess Atheism seem to suffer from the same shortcomings as the God Believers, that is, to take a position which cannot be rationally justified.

RC

[beeswax]

[quote] I have an idea. Why don't you tell me why, since I have a faith, I am a detriment to society. Why is that so bad?

What harm do I do?

It is a fair question.

RR [quote]

We have done that many times before RR..

You belong to a church that clearly condemns homosexual behaviour and they need forgiveness by God. Same as the Catholic Church does who indeed calls them inherently evil too. And yet they are allowed to keep doing that today? Its why Muslim gays are being murdered today in the middle east based wholly on holy text.

[jackdaww]

[quote="beeswax"][quote] I have an idea. Why don't you tell me why, since I have a faith, I am a detriment to society. Why is that so bad?

What harm do I do?

It is a fair question.

RR [quote]

====================

tip .

to quote a post , hit those inverted apostrophes things in top rhs of the post .

[ReformedCharacter]

I find it strange that many people who profess Atheism seem to suffer from the same shortcomings as the God Believers, that is, to take a position which cannot be rationally justified.

RC

I would happily accept the existence of an almighty God if he would simply cease and desist giving cancer to small children. If the deity exists, he is certainly extraordinarily cruel.

Until then, me and Him are not simpatico. I will happily carry this attitude to all his followers too. Providing moral support to a tyrannical spreader of cancer and disability like Him makes them complicit in His sins.

It's difficult to see utility in a view that seeks to justify or deny the existence on an almighty God on the basis of that God having characteristics that you do or don't like. Or can you otherwise view reality as a matter of personal preference?

RC

[Stonge]

I can't answer who created who created the 'Creator'...

This is a category mistake.

[beeswax]

I can't answer who created who created the 'Creator'...

This is a category mistake.

Not sure I understand your point?

What I mean is from our own experience albeit limited, we know that generally its true that nothing comes from nothing and there is a prime mover or cause. Therefore its not unreasonable to believe something or someone caused the universe and us to come into existence. Nobody has any idea what yet? Religion believes it was someone called God or equivalent name and many of his actions and attributes as chronicled in religious text. If that was true then atheists can rightly point out the psychopathic nature of that God. Personally, I don't think anyone knows anything about the Creator and are just guessing and they are using their man made God to control others. That is so obvious.

But then rightly people ask who created the 'Creator' and so the answer must be we don't know even though we we can guess things like he or it has always existed or it came into existence at some point or nothing ever existed before but does that make sense? I don't think it does and so I'm personally prepared to believe we are the result of a creative action or thought. I hope that clarifies my answer.

[TUK020]

I guess I am an atheist, although I tend not to use that word for 2 reasons:
a) it is defining me according to what I don't believe in someone else's frame of reference (A Muslim might call a Christian an 'unbeliever', but the Christian doesn't then describe himself as such)
b) I feel that it is fixating on the wrong question; even if there is a god (creator, however you want to define it) how does anyone know what they want?

I usually describe myself as a Humanist, which to me means that I believe that reason and empathy are a better guide to a sound ethical framework than supernatural revelation.

onto the questions:

1. I was brought up in a boarding school run by a Catholic monastery, where religion was pushed pretty hard. I just tended not to think about it. Didn't really consider religion until much later in life (in my 40s), and then rejected it.
2. Are there times I believe in God? No. Probably tested on the death of my mother; did I think there was an afterlife? I came to the conclusion this was just wishful thinking by people in bereavement.
3. Faith is a choice to believe in something without evidence. I believe it very important to respect people's right to believe in what they want, as this is the best defence against someone else forcing you to believe their particular brand of religion. This does not equate to respecting what they believe in, or them for believing in it.

[gryffron]

I believe it very important to respect people's right to believe in what they want, as this is the best defence against someone else forcing you to believe their particular brand of religion. This does not equate to respecting what they believe in, or them for believing in it.

I like that. Spot on!

Gryff

[RowdyReptile]

the point is just that , nothing sinister , its fair to say few believers have posted , i hope more will post .

the label "secular" is being used - is that appropriate? must there be labels?

i repeat my take on this - i ask "whats it all about" - my answer "i dont know" .

i do rule out the likelyhood of any beliefs i have come across being true as less likely than winning the lottery every week for ever.

I hope more "believers" post sure. I am sure even starting this board was met with no small degree of ...trepidation..... perhaps for the people kind enough to create an alternative to TMF UK.

As far as labels go, I think not putting people into nice and tidy categories would be a good thing. Perhaps labels help create the divisions in the first place.

When you give the question, "What is it all about?" and say "I don't know.", I am afraid I can't add more to that. I don't have it figured out either, but believer and non believer do have to find a way to live on this world. Finding that common ground would be ...real swell.

Take care,

RR

[RowdyReptile]

How odd!


I hope Rowdy Reptile doesn't keep doing as he did on TMF by using 'secularism' and the US Government every time religion is discussed though. Also I hope he can keep the discussion civilised otherwise this board will surely be closed or he banned. But we can all live and learn.

Two things. Yes, I was hardly civilised on TMF UK. I admit it. But as you say, we can all live and learn. It is a new board and a new day, and if I stray on little bit from the rules here, then I will be rightly run out of here.

I will not break the rules here. It will not be me who breaks the peace. There I said it. Plain as day, and if I do not, then you know be to be a liar.

Now, to your first sentence, I think it is fair game to discuss secularism if you are talking about power, control and force. It goes into the philosophical part of this board. While I agree, and it is blatantly obvious, that religion has been used to exercise power and control over people, it is not the only tool. It is a target, and rightly so. But it is not the only one.

So while we can, and should, hold religions feet to the fire, it is not the only force out there that divides, hates or wishes to subjugate. Perhaps we need to decide how broad this board goes. I will not cheat if you tell me the rules.

RR

[RowdyReptile]

You belong to a church that clearly condemns homosexual behaviour and they need forgiveness by God. Same as the Catholic Church does who indeed calls them inherently evil too. And yet they are allowed to keep doing that today? Its why Muslim gays are being murdered today in the middle east based wholly on holy text.

While it is so my church does not agree with Same sex marriage, many of us are ok with it being allowed by government. If I have a right, then how can I deny that right to another? I do not want to live in a theocracy any more than any of you.

Since you were kind enough to tell the board my former aggressive nature, I feel compelled to share a small part of my point of view. While it is true I stated the beliefs of my church, and at times defended it, I at no point said I wanted my church's theology to rule the world or control individuals. I repeatedly said that a person could do as they chose, and said till I was blue in the face I have no issue with gay marriage, a women's right to chose, even drug legalization. These things were repeatedly ignored. It was almost as if they did not want to hear that part.

Now maybe it was because I was once a member of Uncle Sam's Marauding horde. Very aggressive people. But, it is not necessary to attack all the time, especially when my politics would probably agree with you in many ways.

You will not change the theology of my church, and it is a fair bet I can't make you believe in a God. Now what do we do?

RR

[RowdyReptile]

Not sure if the question is addressed to me, but I will give it a go: People with faith are a threat to society because holy books contain so much "divine revelation" that can be used to justify persecution of others including atheists like myself.

It can't be denied that the some of the recorded actions and commandments of God/Yahweh/Allah seem brutal and bloody examples.

A society that follows the holy texts to the letter is a xenophobic society that persecutes the different, kills homosexuals, and thinks the world was created in a week.

So yeah, religion is a threat to a successful society, because keeping the creaking edifice of industrial society together requires all of us to cooperate and use scientific thought to produce the goods that keep 7 billion humans from starving. Believing in a vengeful intolerant Creator from the myths of the Bronze Age is frankly a luxury we can't afford if we are to hold together a civilisation on its current global scale.

So you are more concerned with its application than the individual believer?

This is important because there seems to be so much angst and venom thrown at the believer and whatever faith they have. I think the atheist or agnostic needs to take a breath now, as certainly religion has done these things, there have been non religious beliefs that have done the same thing.

Certainly a philosophical stance would be to be cynical of any thought that wants control and dominion over others. Certainly beating up the religious is fine, but you might want to spread your wings just a tad.

RR

[RowdyReptile]

Writing as the OP on this topic can I say that we seem to have drifted off topic.

I was specifically interested in the answers to my questions from the atheist viewpoint so I was not expecting believers to reply to the thread although their thoughts if on topic are welcome.

There are undoubtedly many interesting questions that others might wish to ask of believers and if so I would suggest they start a new topic.

Also will I add that the best way towards understanding is to keep the tone polite and respectful.

A sign of a civilised mind is the ability to understand people with different beliefs and opinions to themselves.

John

You are quite right. I certainly changed things a bit, and I apologize if I took this thread the wrong way.

I would add that the sign of a civilised mind is not only to understand, but to allow different beliefs and opinions. That is truly the hard one.

RR

[RowdyReptile]

Remember Beeswax, my church confronted the mobs, and the US government. We still stand.

Yes, its theology might stand for some things you disagree, but we stood .....when all where against us and burned our churches to the ground.

We have amazing patience. In the end, we prevailed.

This song here shows the ground where our place of worship was once burned to the ground, but on this day.......we rededicated it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2arm5ydeJc

And then, an entire rebuild......My church stands, and our enemies are gone. We rebuilt what they destroyed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gevmBONEulg

Every had an extermination order out for your church. We did. "Common enemy of all mankind" I believe where the words.

We have had our men killed, women raped, children thrown out into the snow, and our houses burned down. We even had the US government turn on us.....for in reality no good reason. We are still here and our critics.....well.....not so much.

You can imagine your criticisms on a message board being rather....limp.

Just so we understand one another mind you. So if you want to bring up my church, I say, fine. I stand with them and our history. Truly courageous people.

RR

[RowdyReptile]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxfmNilOkXA

That song is heavy duty. To be honest, perhaps one of the best Christian hymns ever written, but most of them won't admit it because a Mormon wrote it.

Helluva shame.

and should we die before our journey is through
Happy day! All is well!
We then are free from toil and sorrow, too;
With the just we shall dwell!
But if our lives are spared again
To see the Saints their rest obtain,
Oh, how we'll make this chorus swell—
All is well! All is well!


Truly inspiring in a way. Art really.

RR

[RowdyReptile]

And this is another great one. Truly great lyrics, and when the Motab sings it....chills....

But most of Christianity has never heard of it, and it they did, they would hate it because a Mormon wrote it.

Very strange.

How blessed the day when the lamb and the lion
Shall lie down together without any ire,
And Ephraim be crowned with his blessing in Zion,
As Jesus descends with his chariot of fire!

We’ll sing and we’ll shout with the armies of heaven,
Hosanna, hosanna to God and the Lamb!
Let glory to them in the highest be given,
Henceforth and forever, Amen and amen!

I mean if you were a Christian, you would have to like that stuff right. Apparently not.

Hum dinger of a tune though. I mean how can such idiots sing like that and play classical instruments like that? What a bunch of mindless dolts.

Truly morons here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=608cbv7Qe_A


RR

[Vision25]

We have had our men killed, women raped, children thrown out into the snow, and our houses burned down. We even had the US government turn on us.....for in reality no good reason. We are still here and our critics.....well.....not so much.

Are you referring to the 1890 court case?

If you are, and considering that this is the sort of thing govts do, are you against all instances of this sort of govt action or only against it when it involves your religion?

Just so we understand one another mind you. So if you want to bring up my church, I say, fine. I stand with them and our history. Truly courageous people.

RR

You have outed yourself as a mormon.

Do you have more than one wife?

Do you understand that this is bad for civilisation if a society has only 25% of males having wives?



About your religious music and you pointing out that others not rating the two examples you gave because they where written by mormons.

This is really quite incorrect. Music stands as an art form in its own right, it is irrelevant as to the religiosity of the composer.

Here are four examples of much better music.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipzR9bhei_o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPlhKP0nZII

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0S0zNFzK_ns

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PYt2HlBuyI


Compare and contrast with the two pieces you provided.

Moderator Message:
line deleted, in breach of site rules

Let me give you an analogy, Mien Kampf and Adolf Hitlers painting are not bad art because they where made by Adolf Hitler, they are bad art simply because they aren't very good.

Vision25