servodude wrote:ReformedCharacter wrote:In the spirit of open-minded discussion, could you please post some links to those results that showed consecrated wafers transformed into cardiac tissue please, thank you.
RC
And also could you possibly deal with the fact that for centuries the church has said it wasn't meant to be taken literally - the essence changing rather than the matter; why were they wrong?
What's so hard about metaphor for some of their followers that it needs to be "proven" again these heretical upstarts with their "science"? Is it a comprehension problem they have?
I am done with this thread. There are those who will research them, those who wont. Up to them.
The catholic church has never said it was not to be taken literally, that was the faux reformationists who cannot agree with each other even!.
As doctrine.
From the first and taught by John himsef, Ignatius said " that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ" Justin Martyr called it the "flesh" of Jesus. The belief is why Romans thought christians were cannibals. The bible uses the word meaning "gnaw" not "consume" generally is why Jesus followers were horrified.
Anasthasius of the nicene creed could not have made it plainer when he said
"So long as the prayers of supplication and entreaties have not been made, there is only bread and wine. But after the great and wonderful prayers have been completed, then the bread is become the Body, and the wine the Blood, of our Lord Jesus Christ…"
But scientific tests cannot say what something is, only how it manifests to the senses. So the substance change does not always manifest as a form change. Which is not the same thing. Sometimes the window is opened to the senses as in the eucharistic miracles.
As science.
There is no quick fix here for information.
The web is a dreadful place to find balanced presentation of anything controversial.
The hyped up pious nonsense and overreach is as bad as the skeptic pseudoscience for clouding the facts. There is too much of both.
Worst of all is when sceptic cientists perjure themselves, take the dean of bialystock university regarding Sokolka attempting to misrerpresent what the qualified pathologists such as Soubaniec in his university had actually found. Thankfully the slides and sections speak for themselves. They were cardiac tissue. The attempts to gag the pathologists. Many universities have refused to get involved knowing what the subject matter was. Which is one reason why forensic labs and blind testing was used. The other reason is criminal forensic labs and pathologists ARE the right vehicle for testing human tissue, not academia.
You can find a precis of them on therealpresence.org with some slides and cardiac tissue sections.
There is some on reasontobelieve.com.au, you tube videos too by one of the investigators.
Best starting place
Review books serafini possible the best ("the cardiologist who examined jesus") discusses them all. Start there.
Or tesoriero either "unseen", or "my human heart" or perhaps castarnon "mas alla de la raison"
But if you want to see the actual reports you have to go back to the books of forensic reports
I cited "cronico de milagro eucharistico, esplendor en tixtla" castarnon for tixtla includes electron micrographs etc.
Or "the eucharistic miracle of lanciano" documents all the histological studies.
You see the labs had impeccable credentials.
Serafini explains the hard science of mitochondrial DNA haplogroups.
One reason these samples cannot be fraud, is they are human tissue and blood, but present only mitochondrial (maternal DNA) identification, not
nuclear DNA identity ( which is all redundant DNA) despite the abundance of cellular material. A fraudster DNA would give an identiy sequence. A human identity is a bar code. It is as if Jesus bar code was all 0. No repeats. But then he was alleged to have no father, only a human mother, so maybe that is why there is only maternal DNA
I entered the thread only to say "there is evidence" for those who think it is all a fairy tale.
The bleeding statue of cochabamba is also inexplicable by forensics.
Many other verified prodigies too. The hospital certified indedia of alexandrina da costa. Stigmata of Katya rivas. Miracle of sun at Fatima. Prophecies of Kibeho. Writings of rivas and therese neumman.They used langages they cannot have known. etc etc
How did a bed ridden nun in belgium explain where to find the long lost house of mary near ephesus?
My last word on the matter. I came here to talk about investing.